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Thread: The truth about the WEBLEY REBEL and the innova

  1. #1
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    The truth about the WEBLEY REBEL and the innova

    Hi everyone,
    Im amazed at the crappy reports about this rifle when it's actually a good rifle with a little mod here and there..
    But people just keep screwing them up and complaining,,

    First let me assure everyone I am not involved in the manufacture promotion or selling of the rebel in any way...im a retired engineer..


    The new WEBLEY REBEL is a Chinese version of the old SHARP INNOVA, They are also made in Maylasia to a slightly different spec but let's not go there.

    First the Chinese as usual make things cheep and cheerful. So they have copied and cut a few corners. Some people testing the new rifle are just being silly pumping until something breaks...their arm or the rifle..complaining that it's inaccurate or broken....no wonder.!!!
    I bought one of the first 0.177 available in the UK ( coming back from france where i live) along with a high power scope and took it back home for testing.
    The standard sights are a bit naf...ok for plinking but it merits a decent scope...even if it's just a good 4 x 20... First thing i noticed was strange odd shots that ended coming from a defect in my new scope. It wouldn't adjust through all the range properly so it went back for a replacement..OK that sorted on to testing again.. I soon noticed the problem with twisting when taking higher power shots. I know that 6 or 7 pumps is almost enough to reach the blow off limiter, and that trying anything like adding oil would burn out the one way pump valve ( did that on the innova by accident) so I decided to void the warranty and open her up....
    To cut a long story short, i have implemented over 9 modifications that have turned this rifle into an excellent rifle. but there is a few things that anyone can do to avoid the traps and have excellent results without having to be a genius...

    Ok First take it back to the dealer and ask him to adjust the pump lever so that it closes with out that loud CLACK CLACK each time.
    Second to add a few drops of locktight to the pump barrel where it enters the receiver block to stop it twisting.
    Now add a decent scope and you are ready to shoot with good accuracy, equal to the innova...that was easy no? just keep to 4 pumps and your done..it wont break...

    Now for the exciting bit, if you have a friendly gunsmith or have engineering skills this is what you can do to really make it special.

    First the power level and the pump lever adjustment must be sorted, by adjusting the blow off ( remove the blind roll pin) valve and the stroke arm so that the lever operates quietly but clicks firmly up into position. keep it to 8 pumps max or go buy a 22lr !!
    Next remove the main reservoir and the internal plastic seal, and replace it with a square section rubber silicone seal and brass interference fit retainer. Just copy the innova design or even buy the parts. This is a must, i have made spare seal retainers but i cannot guarantie the Chineese make them all the same diameter internally.. so you will have to make your own ..
    Replace the non return valve spring with a rust proof one. and re machine the internal support tube to the same length as the 0.22 inova . this will increase the internal volume and increase the fps per pump...yes read on it does.. someone did the opposite and shortened the chamber to increase pressure per pump..in theory that's ok but not in practice according to their and my figures. The bigger volume accelerates the pellet at a more constant velocity and it exits the barrel faster than a smaller reservoir does. Why, well the smaller higher pressure cylinder will accelerate the pellet faster to start with but before the pellet exits the barrel there is no more air pushing the pellet.!!! it slows down...
    You must have enough volume of air to keep the pellet accelerating constantly... results speak for themselves with a much closer fps per shot. My mean error is 0.4% ..constant velocity means accuracy, as variations in velocity will cause the pellet to have vertical errors in trajectory..

    Now add a second tapered rubber bump stop to the firing pin buffer and this will reduce the jolt from the firing pin moving back and hitting the stop. Fit a better quality spring and there will be no deformation of the spring..That's another problem with over pumping, the spring gets all messed up and the rifle won't charge anymore.. lots have failed like that, but what do you expect when you treat a new rifle like that...

    Polish the firing pin till it looks like chrome.( or one made by SHARP )

    Fit a second bolt to the underside of the main pump barrel as on the innova ; to push the tube up against the transfer seal. thats another problem with high pressure this seal will give way if over pumped and the barrel rotates... all this is avoided by not over pumping... If you want to kill elephants...get a bigger gun...don't destroy your rifle by pumping like a demented gorilla..
    I drilled a hole horizontally and inserted a brass ferrule that has a bolt going up through the plastic receiver ( another hole) and pushes up against the pump barrel seal. The Maylasian models have two grub screws that do the same thing, but I had already done my mod...and it works so... hey.!!

    Now the pump barrel can be secured pushing hard against the transfer seal ( i fitted a thicker softer one here as well) and use a dab of locktight to secure the pump barrel..

    I have also removed the main barrel and re-cemented that in too as I wanted to make that a 100% seal in the receiver...It's glued in with a white plastic.!!! easy to remove and do properly.
    Added a neoprene pump lever bump stop inside the pump lever so that the lever does not strike the tube. now my pumping is almost silent. You can also learn how to pump without fully closing the lever but just taking it to the top of the stroke about 0.5" away from the pump barrel.
    Learn this and you can reload in silence and take another shot with out scaring the prey..

    Next remove the front end and remove the silencer thread ( it unscrews from the inside) before it breaks as it's very fragile.
    Cut back the plastic sleeve for the main barrel and make a new threaded insert that fits tightly over the barrel and screws into the front mounting ready for all silencers. I have used an extra 5 cms of the barrel to secure the threaded section and give perfect alignment for my own design of silencer. The thread on the REBEL is not the usual 1/2"UNF but they have mistakenly used a M12 thread instead. THey are the same thread pitch but the M12 is a smidge thinner so your usual silencer will be a sloppy fit. I have designed a silencer especially for the REBEL thread from aluminum with 36 internal ports and 6 internal high density absorbing chambers. I didn't use etherfoam or hair curlers or use empty chambers but designed a pressure absorbing / transfer design that pre-charges with the compressing air in fromt of the pellet, then absorbs the higher pressure wave and releases it slowly giving a dual caliber silencer that weights under 80 gramms...Anodized in matching black as well and looks terrific. I have made a series of these if any one is interested..

    Trigger tension, and thats the biggest of the mods..All these can be done if care is taken and you have reasonable skills..

    So now the gritty bit...the results..using my new chronograph here are the results

    Pellets used is the Gammo match 0.49 G...7.56 Gr
    1 & 2 pumps N/A Didn't bother !!
    3 pumps 579, 583, 584. 5.6 flbs 178 m/s
    4 pumps 656, 657, 654. 7.1 flbs 200 m/s
    5 pumps 714, 713, 713. 8.4 flbs 218m/s
    6 pumps 755, 760, 760. 9.6 flbs 232m/s
    7 pumps 789, 792, 796. 10.4 flbs 240m/s possibly didn't open the lever enough on pumping 1st stroke
    8 pumps 823, 824, 822. 11.3 flbs 250m/s
    My mean error variation is 0.4% if I discount the pump I did too fast for the air to get in..

    Im hitting the target in a 1cm group at 10 meters in the semi dark and im not using any support other than my elbows on the firing table, and with the wrong glasses. seriously good rifle now...Just wait till I get my new glasses...Thats the trouble with getting old...
    oh, scope is a hawk night eye digi ir 6-24 x 50 and that's a very nice combination that allows me to shoot in near darkness, silently, with no CLACK CLACK CLACK....More like , , , , aim and Teuhh !
    I only shoot vermin and targets..all the bunnys are safe...
    So there you have the first proper test on the REBEL..please stop doing crap tests on rifles by over pumping them and twisting them out of shape..it.s a Chinese copy...but can be blueprinted to higher spec than the SHARP INNOVA and at a very low cost.. The parts probably cost me 10€ and my time..

    I have fired over 3000 pellets from the rebel and over 7000 from the innova... So I think im well qualified to comment...
    Gammo match and the ts10 or pro hunter in 0.22 are my preferred ammo for both pump rifles and the TS10 is easier to lead to in the more fiddly 0.177 as both the 0.177 and the 0.22 have the same size opening for loading...!!
    So that's me done for now...Until I come over and get a 0.22 rebel to add to my gun cupboard.
    So if you have bought a rebel, fix it, use it and have fun..If you are thinking of getting one, then do get one, and get it set up my the gunsmith and look after it.. you won't be disappointed... Anyone with a 0.22 for sale that's not been broken contact me...

  2. #2
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    That's some first post. Very informative Welcome to the forum.

  3. #3
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    it's in the wrong section

    Thankyou but for some reason my post has ended up in the wrong section ..under firearms instead of air rifles
    perhaps the sensor can move it over...
    i tried to send some pictures but faild and had to re tye it all again..nice.
    is it possible to attach a picture ?
    Colin

  4. #4
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    Lots of info there, thank you and wellcome. I have an Innova mark 2 in .22 and its great fun to use and very accurate.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpmwasp View Post
    Thankyou but for some reason my post has ended up in the wrong section ..under firearms instead of air rifles
    perhaps the sensor can move it over...
    i tried to send some pictures but faild and had to re tye it all again..nice.
    is it possible to attach a picture ?
    Colin
    Easiest to open something like a photobucket account, then paste the link in to your pictures.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpmwasp View Post
    Thankyou but for some reason my post has ended up in the wrong section ..under firearms instead of air rifles
    perhaps the sensor can move it over...
    i tried to send some pictures but faild and had to re tye it all again..nice.
    is it possible to attach a picture ?
    Colin
    are you minilandrover ?

  7. #7
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    Interesting post for sure but all that work is simply not worth the effort IMO. Just get a nice original Japanese Innova - I had 13 at one point and after selling many I still have 3 or 4.

    The important point that I want to add is that you need to give us the power output of your gun at 9, 10, 11... up to 15 pumps too - this is vital:

    In my extensive experience (owning 13 Innovas and servicing 10+ for other people), If you can achieve a significant power increase from pump 7 to 8 as you have reported, then the power is going to go up again significantly on the next 2 or 3 pumps.

    In order to avoid holding an illegal Sec. 1, it is really important that you can show that after 15 pumps the power is still below 12 ft lb.

    From the hours and hours of testing that I have done I have reached the following conclusion which is not absolutely the case for every Innova but is a guide and will be close..

    .22 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 8 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 5 or 6. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.

    .177 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 12 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 7 or 8. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.

    These are my findings and I report them simply to show that keeping these guns legal is not as simple as it may at first appear.

    HTH
    Matty
    Opportunity is missed by most people, because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.

  8. #8
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    stop over pumping rebel's

    You didnt read all that i wrote did you.
    I said there is no point pumping like a mad gorrila... here are the power levels after reworking the rebel
    1 & 2 pumps N/A Didn't bother !!
    3 pumps 579, 583, 584. 5.6 flbs 178 m/s
    4 pumps 656, 657, 654. 7.1 flbs 200 m/s
    5 pumps 714, 713, 713. 8.4 flbs 218m/s
    6 pumps 755, 760, 760. 9.6 flbs232m/s
    7 pumps 789, 792, 796. 10.4 flbs 240m/s
    8 pumps 823, 824, 822. 11.3 flbs 250m/s

    you can see that itì's very linear so with an increase from 5.6 to 7.1 being 1.5 and the inxcrease between 7.1 and 8.4 being 1.3 and the increase from 8.4 to 9.6 being 1.2 can you see a pattern? the increase from 7 pumps to 8 pumps was 10.4 to 11.3 (0.9 ) so it follows that one extra pump will take you to 12 ft lbs the legal limit....no need for 13, 14, 15. pumps if you want to shoot elephants, get a bigger gun...

    When a pellet travels through the air it creates a pressure wave in front that travels at the speed of sound, If you shoot at mach 1+ you will get a loud crack, and no silencer will silence that as it's generated through the flight of the pellet. 4 pumps gives 656 ft / sec that's ample to hit a target with great prescision at 100m if you have set up you scope to compensate. ( use hawke chair gun pro software it's great) At the slower legal power settings 656 ft/sec is quieter and almost silent with my silencer designed specially for the rebel with it's 12 thread.
    All I get is a quieit "Teuhh", even when i shoot at 30 meters the sound of the pellet hitting the target is louder than the actual shot fired.. Why alert the target you are shooting at?? why pump over 8 pumps?? what do you thinbk you will achieve??
    Look at the mean averages of pellet speed difference for each number of pumps...3 pumps variation is 5 fps. 4 pumps variation is 3fps. 5 pumps variation is 1 fps.-- and 6 pumps is 5 fps. 7 pumps is 7 fps and 8 pumps is 2 fps
    The more variation in fps for a set number of pumps means that vertical accuracy is lessened. that leads to poor results. If you only pump at 4 pumps the variation is very little just 3 fps variation. This will drill out the center of the targe very easily...
    3 fps variation at 50 meters is 1/4 of an inch...and the 5 pump variation was just 1 fps thats a vertical difference of just 1/10 of an inch at 713 fps.for 50 yards.....yes that's the ballistic precision for pellets with identical performance. The errors above that are down to the shooter.
    So why would anyone want to pump 15 or 20 pumps so that the pellet has to go through the sound barrier where it's destabilised, and the pump barrel of the rifle get's twisted under the strain causing side ways errors...Yes that is where the left / right errors come from. Even the innova was not immune to this through forcing hard against the pump handle twisting the barrel in the stock very slightly... Thats why i made improuvements to the securing system and used locktight to stop it from twisting..
    If you shoot over 800fps the pellet starts to wobble as the pressure wave is dancing around the skirt of the pellet. All the way up through the point of Mach 1 and up to 1100 fps the change in resistance to the pellet is great . The drag coefecient curve is almost at 45 deg, but flattens out again after 1200 fps and stays flat right through Mach 2 and Mach 3...So why shoot at a speed close to the speed of sound if you want accuracy?
    Will the hole in the target be any different if cut at 500, 600 or 700 fps? Will a kill shot be any less effective on a rat or rabbit at 656 or 800 fps ? I doubt that very much.. so why do you want to extract any more power from the rifle??? why pump and pump and pump with a loud "CLACK...CLACK...CLACK" at those higher pressures? with the modified pump stroke and resevoir the rifle pumps silently...shoots silently ( with a silencer) and hits a target at 50 meters with an accuracy of no more than 1/4 of an inch...
    Also 4 pumps (656 fps) will drill a hole through 15cm of ballistic clay at 10 meters so why would any sensible person want to go to 15 pumps??? are you hunting elephants??

    My detailed page on how to modify the rifle and extract the best performance that will match and exceed any innova is there for everyone to use to get accuracy and easy power quietly...try it and see... use the software available from hawke, learn how to set up a rifle and scope using this software to optimise the "kill zone" and tune in he rifle to get the best results from the scope /pellet type and weight / fps info.
    I have fired over 3000 shots through the rifle so far and having done the mods have a far better rifle than when it came out of the box...
    Colin

  9. #9
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    Wink pump till blow off

    I ve just re read the prevoius reply and there is a point worth clearing up... if the blow off valve starts releasing at 8 pumps them 9 or 10 or 100 will not make any difference....the blow off valve is blowing off.....so the pressure cannot go any higher..
    you said the following statement..

    .177 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 12 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 7 or 8. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.

    You say the blow off valve operates at 7 or 8 pumps, but reaches 11.4 ft lbs or were you using my figures?? mine blows off at 8 pumps because that is what I set it at.. I removed the blind roll pin by making a special tool to pull it out rather than drill through the other side and hote it would line up..

    You say you still have some innova's in 0.22? are they new old stock or second hand ones? there will be a lot of interested people if the price is right..but there is a point...do you spend £250+ on a part wornout rifle ( if it's been over pumped systematically) that needs 20 pumps to fill the reservoir chamber.. or pay £110 and get a brand new REBEL..then get the gunsmith to do the main two mods to the rifle to stop the noisy pump action and to bond in the pump tube so that is cannot rotate.. IMO the latter is the better deal...

    Unless you are selling a couple of boxed unused innova's then you will make two people very happy at least...if the price is compatible...

    There is a really funny video on youtube of a really fat kid with a pump up rifle...he is standing next to a big tree.. he pumps furiously then reaches up and shoves the rifle up into the tree and hooks in in the branches....GOOD JOB ITS NOT LOADED.. then starts to climb up and the first big branch snaps and dumps him on his arse, with the rifle stuck up the tree..... one day some one will wonder how a rifle got up a tree on it's own...laugh ...I nearly cried laughing...
    Colin

  10. #10
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    Obviously forensic labs won't know the rifles blow off after x amount of pumps. Fwiw, I think mattys post suggests that he pumps them 15 times when checking power output, not to gain extra fpe. Not only would it be silly, but fairly tiring!

    Anyway, I'd rather spend an extra £50 and get a genuine innova, instead of some clone that needs umpteen mods to get it performing anywhere like an innova.

  11. #11
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    Rebel

    Im amazed at the crappy reports about this rifle......i'm not.......pump linkage felt like a 20 yr old Sharp real quick,silencer thread not concentric,marker pen bluing,hideous trigger,have had better built biro's etc etc....was accurate on low pumps though i'd give it that.

    Ended up with a Slavia 634 as a cheapy plink thing.... for not a lot more ££££.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -- Benjamin Franklin

  12. #12
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    still pumping

    Well i did say in my very first post.."" First the Chinese as usual make things cheep and cheerful. So they have copied and cut a few corners..""
    and i was not kidding but the basis and thank god the barrel are fine and suitable to do a few mods on...so who has never customised a rifle?
    How did the other rifle you bought fair for accuracy? and weight.? I would never claim it's the best rifle , or that it's the cheapest, but for the money it's a bargain if it's treated the right way... My old innova has been fed with over7000 rounds paid for by me and god only knows what it did in it's previouse life as i got it second hand in a poor state. But after a rebuild I was impressed, and after 7000 rounds it got another rebuild using some parts i duplicated to uprate the rebel.. and yes that poor excuse of a silencer mount is probably the biggest crisis I have seen on a rifle.. The innova didn't have one so I had to make a complete front end from brass, looks oldie western now with the dark wood stock and brass fittings. The rebel got a custom made mount that's 8 cms long in all. So it starts from behind the front sight, way behind, and that gives it a very well aligned axis. and wobble free. rather than a scrap piece of incorrect thread in a plastic short mount, that it's self could move about...
    The new ridgid silencer mount meant that i could build a silencer with an internal bore of just 6mm and when i get a 0.22 version it will use the same parts and the pellet will never touch the side and deflect. I broke the origional thread as it was so thin and poor quality aly.. mine is replaced with high quality tube. machined assembled and re-machined around the thread axis for perfect alignement. I chose to make the silencers and mounts in the same M12 thread that the Chinese had used in error so that my silencers woul fit any rebel modified or not..and they will fit a UNF 1/2 inch either as a very tight fit or just run a tap through to relieve the with a thou or two... both have the same pitch... I can hit the same spot with or without the silencer, it has no effect on deflection. I might do some fps tests and see if there is any difference, that would be interesting...
    did your new rifle have a silencer mount, and was it solid and well centered..? I have no info on that rifle.. infact i have only ever owned about 7 rifles and have 4 at the moment. So you get what you pay for..but im very happy with the final result...
    Perhaps I will make a brass trigger and guard for the innova to carry on that western look....it is kinda cute...also has brass replacements for the roll pins and pump arm pin. in bigger diameters for less wear.
    Colin

  13. #13
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    how many pumps

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyBoy View Post
    Interesting post for sure but all that work is simply not worth the effort IMO. Just get a nice original Japanese Innova - I had 13 at one point and after selling many I still have 3 or 4.

    The important point that I want to add is that you need to give us the power output of your gun at 9, 10, 11... up to 15 pumps too - this is vital:

    In my extensive experience (owning 13 Innovas and servicing 10+ for other people), If you can achieve a significant power increase from pump 7 to 8 as you have reported, then the power is going to go up again significantly on the next 2 or 3 pumps.

    In order to avoid holding an illegal Sec. 1, it is really important that you can show that after 15 pumps the power is still below 12 ft lb.

    From the hours and hours of testing that I have done I have reached the following conclusion which is not absolutely the case for every Innova but is a guide and will be close..

    .22 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 8 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 5 or 6. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.

    .177 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 12 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 7 or 8. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.

    These are my findings and I report them simply to show that keeping these guns legal is not as simple as it may at first appear.

    HTH
    Matty
    My .22 innova's blow off on end of stroke 4 at 11.3ftlb and the .177 blow off at end of 7th pump at 11.5ftlb.

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