That's some first post. Very informativeWelcome to the forum.
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That's some first post. Very informative
Registered User
Thankyou but for some reason my post has ended up in the wrong section ..under firearms instead of air rifles
perhaps the sensor can move it over...
i tried to send some pictures but faild and had to re tye it all again..nice.
is it possible to attach a picture ?
Colin
Registered User
Lots of info there, thank you and wellcome. I have an Innova mark 2 in .22 and its great fun to use and very accurate.
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Easiest to open something like a photobucket account, then paste the link in to your pictures.Originally Posted by cpmwasp
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are you minilandrover ?
Likes a bit of Pumping
Interesting post for sure but all that work is simply not worth the effort IMO. Just get a nice original Japanese Innova - I had 13 at one point and after selling many I still have 3 or 4.
The important point that I want to add is that you need to give us the power output of your gun at 9, 10, 11... up to 15 pumps too - this is vital:
In my extensive experience (owning 13 Innovas and servicing 10+ for other people), If you can achieve a significant power increase from pump 7 to 8 as you have reported, then the power is going to go up again significantly on the next 2 or 3 pumps.
In order to avoid holding an illegal Sec. 1, it is really important that you can show that after 15 pumps the power is still below 12 ft lb.
From the hours and hours of testing that I have done I have reached the following conclusion which is not absolutely the case for every Innova but is a guide and will be close..
.22 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 8 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 5 or 6. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.
.177 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 12 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 7 or 8. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.
These are my findings and I report them simply to show that keeping these guns legal is not as simple as it may at first appear.
HTH
Matty
Opportunity is missed by most people, because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
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You didnt read all that i wrote did you.
I said there is no point pumping like a mad gorrila... here are the power levels after reworking the rebel
1 & 2 pumps N/A Didn't bother !!
3 pumps 579, 583, 584. 5.6 flbs 178 m/s
4 pumps 656, 657, 654. 7.1 flbs 200 m/s
5 pumps 714, 713, 713. 8.4 flbs 218m/s
6 pumps 755, 760, 760. 9.6 flbs232m/s
7 pumps 789, 792, 796. 10.4 flbs 240m/s
8 pumps 823, 824, 822. 11.3 flbs 250m/s
you can see that itì's very linear so with an increase from 5.6 to 7.1 being 1.5 and the inxcrease between 7.1 and 8.4 being 1.3 and the increase from 8.4 to 9.6 being 1.2 can you see a pattern? the increase from 7 pumps to 8 pumps was 10.4 to 11.3 (0.9 ) so it follows that one extra pump will take you to 12 ft lbs the legal limit....no need for 13, 14, 15. pumps if you want to shoot elephants, get a bigger gun...
When a pellet travels through the air it creates a pressure wave in front that travels at the speed of sound, If you shoot at mach 1+ you will get a loud crack, and no silencer will silence that as it's generated through the flight of the pellet. 4 pumps gives 656 ft / sec that's ample to hit a target with great prescision at 100m if you have set up you scope to compensate. ( use hawke chair gun pro software it's great) At the slower legal power settings 656 ft/sec is quieter and almost silent with my silencer designed specially for the rebel with it's 12 thread.
All I get is a quieit "Teuhh", even when i shoot at 30 meters the sound of the pellet hitting the target is louder than the actual shot fired.. Why alert the target you are shooting at?? why pump over 8 pumps?? what do you thinbk you will achieve??
Look at the mean averages of pellet speed difference for each number of pumps...3 pumps variation is 5 fps. 4 pumps variation is 3fps. 5 pumps variation is 1 fps.-- and 6 pumps is 5 fps. 7 pumps is 7 fps and 8 pumps is 2 fps
The more variation in fps for a set number of pumps means that vertical accuracy is lessened. that leads to poor results. If you only pump at 4 pumps the variation is very little just 3 fps variation. This will drill out the center of the targe very easily...
3 fps variation at 50 meters is 1/4 of an inch...and the 5 pump variation was just 1 fps thats a vertical difference of just 1/10 of an inch at 713 fps.for 50 yards.....yes that's the ballistic precision for pellets with identical performance. The errors above that are down to the shooter.
So why would anyone want to pump 15 or 20 pumps so that the pellet has to go through the sound barrier where it's destabilised, and the pump barrel of the rifle get's twisted under the strain causing side ways errors...Yes that is where the left / right errors come from. Even the innova was not immune to this through forcing hard against the pump handle twisting the barrel in the stock very slightly... Thats why i made improuvements to the securing system and used locktight to stop it from twisting..
If you shoot over 800fps the pellet starts to wobble as the pressure wave is dancing around the skirt of the pellet. All the way up through the point of Mach 1 and up to 1100 fps the change in resistance to the pellet is great . The drag coefecient curve is almost at 45 deg, but flattens out again after 1200 fps and stays flat right through Mach 2 and Mach 3...So why shoot at a speed close to the speed of sound if you want accuracy?
Will the hole in the target be any different if cut at 500, 600 or 700 fps? Will a kill shot be any less effective on a rat or rabbit at 656 or 800 fps ? I doubt that very much.. so why do you want to extract any more power from the rifle??? why pump and pump and pump with a loud "CLACK...CLACK...CLACK" at those higher pressures? with the modified pump stroke and resevoir the rifle pumps silently...shoots silently ( with a silencer) and hits a target at 50 meters with an accuracy of no more than 1/4 of an inch...
Also 4 pumps (656 fps) will drill a hole through 15cm of ballistic clay at 10 meters so why would any sensible person want to go to 15 pumps??? are you hunting elephants??
My detailed page on how to modify the rifle and extract the best performance that will match and exceed any innova is there for everyone to use to get accuracy and easy power quietly...try it and see... use the software available from hawke, learn how to set up a rifle and scope using this software to optimise the "kill zone" and tune in he rifle to get the best results from the scope /pellet type and weight / fps info.
I have fired over 3000 shots through the rifle so far and having done the mods have a far better rifle than when it came out of the box...
Colin
Registered User
pump till blow off
I ve just re read the prevoius reply and there is a point worth clearing up... if the blow off valve starts releasing at 8 pumps them 9 or 10 or 100 will not make any difference....the blow off valve is blowing off.....so the pressure cannot go any higher..
you said the following statement..
.177 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 12 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 7 or 8. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.
You say the blow off valve operates at 7 or 8 pumps, but reaches 11.4 ft lbs or were you using my figures?? mine blows off at 8 pumps because that is what I set it at.. I removed the blind roll pin by making a special tool to pull it out rather than drill through the other side and hote it would line up..
You say you still have some innova's in 0.22? are they new old stock or second hand ones? there will be a lot of interested people if the price is right..but there is a point...do you spend £250+ on a part wornout rifle ( if it's been over pumped systematically) that needs 20 pumps to fill the reservoir chamber.. or pay £110 and get a brand new REBEL..then get the gunsmith to do the main two mods to the rifle to stop the noisy pump action and to bond in the pump tube so that is cannot rotate.. IMO the latter is the better deal...
Unless you are selling a couple of boxed unused innova's then you will make two people very happy at least...if the price is compatible...
There is a really funny video on youtube of a really fat kid with a pump up rifle...he is standing next to a big tree.. he pumps furiously then reaches up and shoves the rifle up into the tree and hooks in in the branches....GOOD JOB ITS NOT LOADED.. then starts to climb up and the first big branch snaps and dumps him on his arse, with the rifle stuck up the tree..... one day some one will wonder how a rifle got up a tree on it's own...laugh ...I nearly cried laughing...
Colin
Registered User
Obviously forensic labs won't know the rifles blow off after x amount of pumps. Fwiw, I think mattys post suggests that he pumps them 15 times when checking power output, not to gain extra fpe. Not only would it be silly, but fairly tiring!
Anyway, I'd rather spend an extra £50 and get a genuine innova, instead of some clone that needs umpteen mods to get it performing anywhere like an innova.
Registered User
My .22 innova's blow off on end of stroke 4 at 11.3ftlb and the .177 blow off at end of 7th pump at 11.5ftlb.Interesting post for sure but all that work is simply not worth the effort IMO. Just get a nice original Japanese Innova - I had 13 at one point and after selling many I still have 3 or 4.
The important point that I want to add is that you need to give us the power output of your gun at 9, 10, 11... up to 15 pumps too - this is vital:
In my extensive experience (owning 13 Innovas and servicing 10+ for other people), If you can achieve a significant power increase from pump 7 to 8 as you have reported, then the power is going to go up again significantly on the next 2 or 3 pumps.
In order to avoid holding an illegal Sec. 1, it is really important that you can show that after 15 pumps the power is still below 12 ft lb.
From the hours and hours of testing that I have done I have reached the following conclusion which is not absolutely the case for every Innova but is a guide and will be close..
.22 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 8 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 5 or 6. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.
.177 cal will reach 11.4 ft lb after 12 pumps when the blow-off valve starts to operate on pump number 7 or 8. The gun will then not go over 12 even after 15 pumps.
These are my findings and I report them simply to show that keeping these guns legal is not as simple as it may at first appear.
HTH
Matty
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