Walther LP52

[Garvin]

I was the buyer of this pistol from eGun and have been keeping my head down so far and enjoying reading all the comments made here and on the AVA! I did forward some detailed pics to various experts for their views.

I was pretty sceptical about it being genuine but thought that since the price wasn't so much more than a cased early example might be worth, I would take a punt.

Handling it, it seems genuine enough, with no signs of the markings having been tampered with. The serial number seems to be out of sequence, but people who know a lot more about it than me suggest it's quite possible that the frame was not mated up with the barrel etc until some time after it was made.

The question of 'forensic' testing of the gun to verify it's genuine is interesting, and I would certainly be happy to submit it, if that's a possibility. Meanwhile, here are some more pics to help you make up your own minds.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps542aca5d.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps76ed7bf9.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps808cd938.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps23ab0758.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps8ee73797.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psdec40181.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...pse7fcc9a6.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps88183809.jpg

[Josie & John]

You just couldn't resist coming out, could you Danny?

Glad you took the plunge and the pistol is not tucked away in some nameless collection, where it would never see the light of day.

If Walther's records are incomplete on this matter, I'm not sure what could prove the pistol is genuine beyond reasonable doubt. If a forensic examination (who would carry out such a task?) revealed the finish was touched up at some stage, would that cast doubt on the results?

This pistol has certainly provoked an interesting debate across the world, so hope you enjoy it.

Kind regards,

John

[Abasmajor]

Hi Danny,

A thing of beauty no matter what it's pedigree.

Well done.

Brian

[ogilkes]

Lots of interesting ideas discussed over on the AVA. But whatever the explanation it does indeed say LP52 on the gun so the damn thing does exist after all! Favorite theory was that they had intended to release it in 52, but there was some hold up in production. If that is the case then the oddity of the serial number is no oddity if the began again with the LP53. Nice find.

I think its genuine one way or another. A decent resolution 3d scan of the surface should reveal weather there has ever been an alteration to the model number.

[micky]

Hi Danny glad it was you that brought it, hopefully it will comfirm it as a LP52 one way or the other at long last. and you didn't pay over the odds for it.

[Hsing-ee]

Sorry chaps, my anorak is at the mender's.... What is the back-story on this thing?

Was it a prototype? A postotype? A typo?

[ogilkes]

See here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/405945/

Always keep a spare anorak.....

[Garvin]

Thanks gents.

No, John, as you know by now, I'm not one to keep quiet for long...

[nige346]

I think its genuine one way or another. A decent resolution 3d scan of the surface should reveal weather there has ever been an alteration to the model number.[/QUOTE]


That will do it, any variance of the stamping could also show tampering with ie: spacing, level of lettering etc however due to the low production volume (allegedly 850, if any did exist ) even that could be factory, If you paid a reasonable price and it shoots nice then why worry, you have a great looking pistol that will always raise an eyebrow and spark debate/conversation when you use it,

[Binners]

If it goes to the lab, do you want a Relum or Gem for testing

[harvey_s]

Well done for 'outing' yourself and whatever you decide to do, I really hope it turns up trumps for you - its almost worth doing nothing just to continue the torment

[Troubledshooter]

Nice one Danny, I look forward to reading of any future developments.

[eyebull]

Glad it went to one of our own
Hopefully we can now get to the bottom of it all, there was me thinking it was something that would always remain a legend....I'm by no means an LP53 expert but that looks completely genuine to me...or at least well enough faked that I wouldn't mind owning it anyway


Was it missing the grips when you bought it Danny?

[harvey_s]

If Walther's records are incomplete on this matter, I'm not sure what could prove the pistol is genuine beyond reasonable doubt. If a forensic examination (who would carry out such a task?) revealed the finish was touched up at some stage, would that cast doubt on the results?

I think all that needs to be done (if the owner wants to...) is to demonstrate that the base metal of the frame is unaltered and commensurate with Walthers original materials and methods of manufacture.
If it did come from an early batch of frames (the mythical 850) then it may be subtley different to the LP53 output anyway as the batch could even have even been initially rejected for some reason or production methods tweaked to improve quality or reduce costs.

Any gun could have been refinished and many have - does that cast doubt over authenticity No, it just says that its been refinished at some point and usually devalues a little.

Likewise there has been reference to trigger geometry - is this relevant? again I would argue No, as its nothing to do with the frame (which is the only part bearing the LP52 identification) and I believe the holes in the frame are unaltered, its just the internals that are different and this could have been changed later or indeed originally assembled with later internals if the gun was created after LP53 production had started - which at this point seems the most likely scenario.

Given that Walther claim never to have produced one - I'm not sure they would be the ones to authenticate it either as it would be most embarassing for them to say at this point "well, actually we MAY have made one"....

[Garvin]

Glad it went to one of our own
Hopefully we can now get to the bottom of it all, there was me thinking it was something that would always remain a legend....I'm by no means an LP53 expert but that looks completely genuine to me...or at least well enough faked that I wouldn't mind owning it anyway


Was it missing the grips when you bought it Danny?

No, Mark, it has brown grips but they're cracked, unfortunately. According to Leonard J's researches, they don't seem to be like the more crudely finished ones on his serial no. 1345 pistol and could well be later ones.

I think all that needs to be done (if the owner wants to...) is to demonstrate that the base metal of the frame is unaltered and commensurate with Walthers original materials and methods of manufacture.
If it did come from an early batch of frames (the mythical 850) then it may be subtley different to the LP53 output anyway as the batch could even have even been initially rejected for some reason or production methods tweaked to improve quality or reduce costs.

Any gun could have been refinished and many have - does that cast doubt over authenticity No, it just says that its been refinished at some point and usually devalues a little.

Likewise there has been reference to trigger geometry - is this relevant? again I would argue No, as its nothing to do with the frame (which is the only part bearing the LP52 identification) and I believe the holes in the frame are unaltered, its just the internals that are different and this could have been changed later or indeed originally assembled with later internals if the gun was created after LP53 production had started - which at this point seems the most likely scenario.

Given that Walther claim never to have produced one - I'm not sure they would be the ones to authenticate it either as it would be most embarassing for them to say at this point "well, actually we MAY have made one"....

It sounds like Walther would need to organise a base metal comparison, Harvey, and I'm not overly keen on sending it back to Germany to be honest. But I suppose that getting into the DNA of the frame is the surest way of knowing whether it came from the factory. Mind you, where else might it have come from? The Soviet State Western Copies Unit?!

As I understand it, LJ has shown this frame was indeed from an early batch and is only the second one seen so far, along with his LP53-marked serial no 1345. They both have a small step in the casting top right of the grips, unlike subsequent examples.


BTW, I had an interesting email saying that the model numbers and Walther banner were certainly cast into the frames, not stamped or otherwise impressed into them later. The author appeared to be something of an expert in such matters.