Webley Air Pistol Batch Numbers

[TopDog]

Just spotted this thread and thought I would add my one remaining Webley pistol.

Premier 276 E

Great mountain of data there John!

atvb
David

[Josie & John]

Just tted this thread and thought I would add my one remaining Webley pistol.

Premier 276 E

Great mountain of data there John!

atvb
David

Thanks David.

Ironically the only really useful information that may be gleaned from this thread concerns the Premier. Would you mind telling me the date stamp of your #276? It should be under the left side grip.

Kind regards,

John

[TopDog]

Thanks David.

Ironically the only really useful information that may be gleaned from this thread concerns the Premier. Would you mind telling me the date stamp of your #276? It should be under the left side grip.

Kind regards,

John

Hi John

9/8 I think! I will e-mail a picture!

atvb
David

[TopDog]

Thanks David.

Ironically the only really useful information that may be gleaned from this thread concerns the Premier. Would you mind telling me the date stamp of your #276? It should be under the left side grip.

Kind regards,

John

Hi John

9/8 I think! I will e-mail a picture!

atvb
David

[sproat]

Hi here are my numbers

Junior marked birm 4 3655 + 3655 under the grip

Junior marked birm 4 1498 same under grip


MK1 birm 4 672

Premier Mk 2 117 Letter E under grip + 11-74


Hope this has been of help

[Josie & John]

Hi here are my numbers

Junior marked birm 4 3655 + 3655 under the grip

Junior marked birm 4 1498 same under grip


MK1 birm 4 672

Premier Mk 2 117 Letter E under grip + 11-74


Hope this has been of help

Hi Sproat,
Thank you for the information. I don't think the Premier is a Mk 2 but the model immediately prior to it. There should be a sticker on the right side of the frame that says WEBLEY PREMIER across its centre with Webley & Scott Ltd and Made In England in smaller letters above and below.

Kind regards,

John

[sproat]

Hi John Yes there is a sticker on the side and it has on it Premier MK2 could this be incorrect,have had this a few years now,also came with wood grips and the original ones,

[Josie & John]

Hi John Yes there is a sticker on the side and it has on it Premier MK2 could this be incorrect,have had this a few years now,also came with wood grips and the original ones,

Hi Sproat,

With the presence of the large E and date stamp, I suspect the pistol is the last of the Premier 'Mk 1' type and the sticker is probably a replacement.

A Premier Mk 2 has a bulbous housing on the left side for the stirrup catch return spring, whereas the earlier pistol has a much smaller housing at the top right of the breech block.

Kind regards,

John

[harvey_s]

I can add Mk1 no. 108 (post-1958) and Senior no. 260 (pre-1958) to the list....

Given the almost non-existant repeats is it possible that they are not batch numbers, but are perhaps serial numbers that were released in batches to assemblers perhaps?

[Josie & John]

A huge thank you to all who have contributed to this thread.

John Atkins and Jeff Hyder have kindly shared their knowledge (post #82) and provided some answers to the purpose of these Batch or Assembly numbers. I'll reproduce John's thoughts again below for those who may have missed them.

There is no longer any need to add further batch numbers to this thread.

Notes re. Webley Air Pistol �Batch� Numbers

It's always good and interesting to pool, record and share information, but as far as Webley & Scott air pistol 'batch' numbers go, I'm unsure what real practical value a database of them is for dating undated specimens. During his research, Jeff Hyder dated pistols purely on known design changes as noted on helpful blueprints - rather than by batch numbers.

However, the highest numbers recorded do show that during one particular year at least that number of models was produced. But which year? Unless mis-stamped, those in a 'batch' will not all share the same number - or we'd see hundreds all bearing the same numbers. Any duplicate numbers found on pistols will be from other 'batches' made in different years.

'Webman' is quite correct in saying that the number signified the particular pistol within a batch and as each pistol in the batch was assembled, it was given a consecutive number and he sums it up well, by saying that: 'the number isn't actually a batch number, but the number of the gun made within a particular batch'.

In other words, they are actually a 'serial number' within a 'batch'. Any duplicate production numbers encountered on pistols will be from different 'batches' with numbers starting from '1' all over again. For instance, Dr. Mark Newcomer (who wrote three great early articles on Webley Air Pistols in 'Guns Review') owned two Webley 'Seniors' both with the same 'batch' number - but they were not from the same batch of pistols, of course.

It's a real shame that Jeff Hyder's proposed book on Webley air pistols never saw the light of day, because this is explained in his chapters using information supplied by Webley. Talking to Jeff recently about this, he gave Mark 1 a/pistols as an example (up to 1,000 - 2,000 per year). Take the four years 1959/60 and 1961/62, for instance - when around 1,500 Mark 1 a/pistols on average were made per annum with numbers running from 1-1,500 each year for the home market, plus 800 for export - i.e. Total average 2,300 Mark 1's per year over those four years. (It is unknown how the export numbers were numbered in relation to the pistols to be sold in the UK).

Looking at the same years for last batches of post-war Senior model pistols (1959, �60, �61 and �62) Jeff�s records show that about 3,000 pistols per year were manufactured for the home market and about 800 for export. Between January and July, 1963, 1,193 were made for home consumption and 476 for export in those first six months of that year.


Inside Webley, we also seem to have had a 'batch within a batch' situation. Some 20 years back, Jeff informed me that the pistol body, barrel and small components were held as stock in the 'finished' components stores. When the pistol components were required for assembly, they would be requisitioned by an Assembly Foreman and would be placed in a purpose-built tray with ten separate compartments. Ten of these wooden trays would be called a 'batch' and these �batches� would be taken into the Assembly Shop to be hand assembled 'in the white' (bare metal components) by 'Actioners'. These 100 pistols called a �batch� in the works only, are not to be confused with the main batch numbers stamped on the pistols, of which they were just a part.

Once completed and working, they would be stripped down and again be placed in the wooden trays to go to the polishing shop. From there, they would go to the Machine Shop to have the inscriptions and patent numbers rolled lengthwise along the body by a hand-powered tool. After roll marking, the trays containing the pistol components would be taken to the Blacking Shop. They would be all wired up with fine wire for blueing to keep them together. On return, the bodies, barrels and small parts would be thoroughly cleaned of all blacking chemicals and re-assembled. The person who initially assembled these pistols in the white, usually stamped a letter or mark on the body (usually on the butt or above the trigger) to make sure the right tray came back to him for assembly.

Jeff was presented with one of these wooden trays when visiting Webley and I have requested a photograph and dimensions of it, to pass on to anyone interested, when he has time to dig it out.

The Actioners had different marks to identify the pistols they had made up. Long ago, Mr. Pat. G. Whatley of Webley & Scott informed Jeff that the pistols he personally assembled were marked with a centre punch dot. This centre 'pop' was his mark to identify his own assembly work.

This was the procedure according to first-hand sources. I've extracted this info. from Jeff's drafts with his permission. Any revisions or amendments will always be welcome from other past Webley workers and their relatives not already interviewed by Jeff. He and I, hope this account will be of some interest. John Atkins

[Abasmajor]

Hello John,

Many thanks to both John Atkins and yourself for sharing this very interesting insight into the significance of Webley batch numbers.

Regards

Brian

[Blackrider]

Not overly sure what I'm looking for here John but I've got a very nice .22 "blued" Mk. 1 Webley PREMIER pistol E series with dark brown bakelite grips.
On the front (muzzle) of the cylinder are the nos. 342 in white !
Hope this helps !

John.

[sproat]

Hi John Just to say you were right there was a small lump on right of frame making it an earlier premier. A very interesting and thought provoking thread, Many Thanks Sproat

[micky]

Hello John,

Many thanks to both John Atkins and yourself for sharing this very interesting incite into the significance of Webley batch numbers.

Regards

Brian

Where would we be without people like John Atkins your good self and all the others over the years, who have saved us the hasle of searching and going through a mountain of information that has taken some people years to find.

[Josie & John]

Where would we be without people like John Atkins your good self and all the others over the years, who have saved us the hasle of searching and going through a mountain of information that has taken some people years to find.

And don't forget the people like yourself Micky, who are willing to share the information they have gleaned over time. Mr Garvin and his easy to access websites springs to mind too.

John