Old bsa help

[Mr. Scratch]

Hi trusted members, i have just been offered an old BSA serial no. 11962, not realy sure what model it is.
The current owner has had a TOTAL REFURB done including gold plated trigger.Has the refurb affected its value? Now before anyone asks i have a few photos on my phone but i don't know how to get them on here, sorry! I would like to know more about the rifle and an approximate value, thanks guys.

[Josie & John]

Hi,

The total refurb and a plated trigger will undoubtedly affect the rifle's value. Unfortunately downwards as removing original finish also removes the rifle's history. An old item should look old and plated triggers may well turn serious collectors off. Is the serial number prefixed with a letter or letters? If not, does it have the bayonet underlever release catch? Are the markings visible or have they been polished off? It is hard to provide a valuation, sight unseen, particularly if the rifle has been fettled.

Probably not much help, I know

John

[Mr. Scratch]

Hi J&J, no prefix at all just number and cocking arm is "dog legged" it also has a standard plain stock. Hope this helps, must admit it looks astounding. Regards

[Mr. Scratch]

Sorry and all markings/stampings seem to be present. Regards

[Abasmajor]

Hi J&J, no prefix at all just number and cocking arm is "dog legged" it also has a standard plain stock. Hope this helps, must admit it looks astounding. Regards

Hi,

The "dog Legged" end to the cocking lever would seem to indicate a Pre-WW1 BSA Improved Mod D, but the Ser No is not within the range associated with that model.

I guess we need some pictures to help clear this one up. As stated above, the restoration would put most serious collectors off, but that doesn't mean the rifle wouldn't make a nice addition to shoot and enjoy.

Regards

Brian

[johnbaz]

Hi,

The "dog Legged" end to the cocking lever would seem to indicate a Pre-WW1 BSA Improved Mod D, but the Ser No is not within the range associated with that model.

I guess we need some pictures to help clear this one up. As stated above, the restoration would put most serious collectors off, but that doesn't mean the rifle wouldn't make a nice addition to shoot and enjoy.

Regards

Brian

Hi again Brian

According to hiller, the serial serial no. 11962 makes this a 1807 model



Here's a scan of the page..




Cheers, John

[Mr. Scratch]

Hi John, think its 1907 but the picture shown is bang on the one i have seen, now with an additional stock which i think is the original one. Must say the one that is fitted to the rifle is superb, someone has done a fantastic job! Regards

[Mr. Scratch]

Thanks Brian, i have pictures on my phone but have no clue how to put them on here!

[Abasmajor]

Hi again Brian

According to hiller, the serial serial no. 11962 makes this a 1807 model



Here's a scan of the page..




Cheers, John

Hello,

Apologies, definitely my mistake when incorrectly reading the Ser No. John Knibbs also lists your guns Ser No as having being made in 1907 which I believe was the same year the first Improved Mod Ds were introduced.

Must get to Specsavers when I get a moment.

Regards

Brian

[Mr. Scratch]

Hi Brian, would it not state Improved Model D somewhere on the rifle itself? All i can see on the top is:- BSA AIR RIFLE and underneath MADE BY THE BIRMINGHAM SMALL ARMS COMPANY LIMITED the serial number is on the side above the trigger. Regards Tony

[Josie & John]

Hi Brian, would it not state Improved Model D somewhere on the rifle itself? All i can see on the top is:- BSA AIR RIFLE and underneath MADE BY THE BIRMINGHAM SMALL ARMS COMPANY LIMITED the serial number is on the side above the trigger. Regards Tony

Hi Tony,

The rifle was advertised as the BSA Improved Model, although it does not say so on the cylinder. It came before the Improved Model B and D. Had BSA made an Improved Model A, this would have been it.

Kind regards,

John

[Mr. Scratch]

Thanks for that John and everyone else that has contributed. Gold plated trigger, total reblue, spare original stock, bag and shoots fine ;o now that i am a little wiser i think at £150 i'm gonna have to buy it, even though it has been "bought up to date" not everybody's cup of tea but it's too quirky to miss! Regards to all, Tony

[Mr. Scratch]

So, now that i have established that this is a BSA Improved (A), what is the rarity of this model? I have seen a few model b's and d's but none of these, any feedback on this? Regards Tony

[edbear2]

So, now that i have established that this is a BSA Improved (A), what is the rarity of this model? I have seen a few model b's and d's but none of these, any feedback on this? Regards Tony

Hi Tony, read John's post again and note the "If they had" bit Yours is a 5th batch gun from the period when BSA alternated between producing guns for Lincoln Jeffries, and the exact same guns with BSA markings to retail themselves. Both Lincoln Jeffries and the bods at BSA lodged various patents and improvements over this period, mostly small details concerning the tap closure and later a strengthened cocking arm. The earliest BSA's were just called "The BSA Air Rifle" and had this impressed on the cylinder, The first time a letter was added in brackets on this impressed legend was in the serial series from 14230 or thereabouts, and was a "B".

Previous guns to the "B", but later than the first rifles were just sold as "improved" models but with no suffix letter for some reason, Logically as John rightly says you could therefore consider any gun from 1120 or so to 14230 to be model A guns, but in reality there is no such thing.

The "B" guns were followed by "D" guns....There ain't no "C" guns either

It's all a bit of a red herring except to collectors who delight in the myriad of small differences in these pre 1914 guns, they are all basically the same guns (Military Pattern excluded) with just;

Two styles of sights (early and later).
Two (or three if you are pedantic) basic cocking lever styles (Ducks bill with or without strengthening or side latch).
Taps with or without ball bearing detents (The Lincoln and early BSA's do have some extra varieties of there own).
Two styles of stock with variations of markings and checkering (cut down in the case of the junior rifle), with earlier guns having steel butt plates, and later ones an oval wooden access insert and grooved stock end.
Two styles of trigger, with later guns having a double "safety sear" set up, which was quietly dropped or disabled by rivets as could be problematic.
The Juvenile is a gun all on it's own, being a true miniature of it's bigger brethren with a smaller cylinder dia than all the other guns shared (in various lengths).

The above is somewhat of a simplification, but not by that much, but it is the merging of production between improvements, and BSA's practise of using parts in stock on guns that technically should not have had them that mean there are countless
"odd" guns out there that are exactly how they left the factory, but different to how they "should" be. Add to this the myriad of BSA supplied options such as aperture sights, sling swivels, sight protectors, cases etc. and it all
means that even if you only collected say 43" improved model D guns from just 1912, you could easily have 20 or more rifles all slightly different, or even more if you collected retailer's stamps or other interesting markings

That's why it is a slippery slope........

ATB, Ed

[Mr. Scratch]

Thanks Ed.