Newbie pistol Advice

[Owillingham]

I've had various air rifles for many years, enjoying pushing myself to improve my accuracy on paper targets at the furthest possible ranges, and hunting rabbits at ranges I know will hit spot on, so never really tried shooting air pistols. My garden is very short, and although would be safe to shoot here, would offer no challenge whatsoever for rifles, and therefor no fun either. I have plenty of permissions nearby that I can go to shoot my rifle, but have started think about getting a pistol to use at home.

I have always liked the look of the berretta 92f, probably from watching so many action movies that featured them as a child (i'm 34 now). I have seen pics and reviews of the Umarex version, and am very tempted, but to be honest could do with some advice on the type of gun I should get. I'm not looking to enter competitions, I purely want to have fun. I don't know the difference between the airsoft, bb, pellet guns (in different calibre's) etc, and how they affect accuracy. I want it to be fun (so the more realistic the better which would lead me towards airsoft/bb guns I guess?), but it also needs to be perfectly accurate as it would drive me insane if there was any other reason for a miss other than my own inability (so this would lead me to a pellet version like the Umarex I guess?).

Basically, the advice I'm after is what TYPE of pistol will provide me with the best accuracy (and if its a pellet pistol, what calibre), and moving on from there, which MODEL would be the most fun to shoot.

Very basic question I know, but like I said, never used air pistols and am starting as a complete noob.

Many thanks

Owen

[oling]

Hi,

Let me start off by saying that I own an Umarex Colt Gov'd 1911 and an Umarex S&W 586 (6 inch), a good non blowback bb pistol and a Webley Tempest. I have also fired on regular occasions though do not own others such as a Crosman 2240 and a S&W 327 (takes the shells). The first thing I'm going to say is that the pistol you should get is an Umarex pellet pistol. The others are NOT reliably accurate. Airsoft pistols refer to pistols which fire a (typically) 0.2g plastic bb. They don't usually have enough power in many cases (though not all) to be really effective for plinking particularly at range. BB pistols refer to pistols which fire a 4.5mm steel (or copper) bb which do often have a similar amount of power to pellets (though typically slightly less). They tend to be inaccurate past about 6yds and definitely not accurate enough to shoot anything other than tins past 10 yds.

People have often slated the Umarex pellet pistols for their accuracy but unfortunately in almost all cases it is down to the shooter and pistol shooting tends to ruthlessly expose poor shooting technique. I can get sub 1 inch groups at 10yds freehand with both the Umarex 1911 and the Umarex 586 and with a red dot/pistol scope and rested, those groups can fall to 3/4 inch at 15 yds. This is all with the H&N Econs (a fairly poorly made pellet equivalent to the RWS Hobbys- imagine what could be done with the likes of the R10 match pellets or meisterkugeln.

Whether you get a pellet-firing Umarex replica or another pellet pistol is down to you of course. The Crosman 2240 possesses as good if not better single shot accuracy to the S&W 586 (the best of the Umarex pellet pistols) and a hell of a lot more knockdown power. However, it doesn't replicate a 'real steel' handgun and is a bolt action single shot (can not be fired in semi automatic).

The Umarex Beretta 92fs is definitely a solid pistol and one to consider but bear in mind that with almost all of the Umarex pellet pistols, the double action trigger is typically very heavy- though least so on the S&W 586) and takes a good amount of skill to control. In short I would say don't dismiss the Umarex pellet pistols as they are solid investments and very well made though it should be considered that they are not accurate in the WAY in which they function (slide parts in the middle, taking a rotary 8 shot pellet magazine, much unlike a real firearm). So if it is FUNCTIONAL realism you're after then maybe you should look elsewhere at a Tanfoglio Witness 1911 or a Sig Sauer X-Five (P226) as they represent arguably the best two 'automatic' replicas with full size drop out magazines and slide locks etc. However, you did say that you were primarily looking for accuracy and so I'd say give the Umarex pellet pistols a go.

Regards,

Oli

[Owillingham]

Hi,

thanks for the reply, I had a feeling that the answer for accuracy was always going to be a pellet pistol, but figured I should at least ask to confirm. I suppose being "realistic" isn't that important to me, though it would be an added bonus, what I'm most concerned about (after accuracy) is how fun it is to shoot. Its a vague term I know, but if I don't find it sufficiently fun to use, I'm worried that it will end up being a waste of money sitting in a cupboard and collecting dust. As I've never had one, not sure how much I will end up using it. I figured a semi-auto that looked the part (like the Umarex beretta) would at least satisfy my childhood fantasies of taking out bad guys whilst doing imaginary commando rolls around the garden (I don't think my back would actually allow me to do anything other than hobble from one foot to the other), but at the same time hopefully gain some proficiency at shooting pistols. Noticed another post today about someone saying how much fun they are having with an old crosman 600, reading the post summarised exactly the way I want to feel about whatever gun it is that I get.

[oling]

It ultimately comes down to what you value most. For me it's accuracy/performance and physical realism (the heft of the pistol in your hand and the general look and feel of it). For me (I know that a lot of folks on here don't particularly like the Umarex pistols but I really do) the Umarex pellet pistols deliver that by the bucket. Are they perfect? No, nothing ever is but they're very good. I just think about the void in the market if they weren't there... Anyway, I digress...

The Umarex pellet pistols feature double and single action triggers which really aids accuracy and enjoyment whilst the pellet magazines are really decent, compact and not too expensive. They're a really great all rounder for my money but they aren't cheap admittedly. If you do go for one, I'd only consider the following: Beretta 92fs, Walther CP88, Walther CP99, Colt 1911, S&W 586 6 inch as they look, function and feel the best out of the bunch. Another key aspect to it all is bulk buying pellets and co2 online and from the right places. I've probably put a couple of thousand rounds at least through both of mine in the past 6 months (I shoot a lot :P) and you can cut your costs by 50% if you're smart about WHERE you source your co2 and pellets from. Look to buy about 10 tins of H&N Econs/RWS Hobbys/Gecos/Umarex Mosquitos from the following sites: Jsramsbottom, BAR (airgunbuyer.com), uttings.co.uk. Get co2 from the either of the first two and bulk buy either 50 or 100 cartridges for around £18 or £35 respectively. That's approximately 35p a co2 capsule. At my local shop I would pay 65p a capsule for the same thing, even when buying the largest amount feasible (around 40 cartridges at once). See where the saving comes in...? Happy shooting and happy easter and btw I totally sympathise with your lust for being James Bond or Bruce Willis, haven't we all... :P

Oli

[TonyL]

For outright accuracy, lovely trigger, very forgiving in use, assured build and lovely looks, consider the Weihrauch HW40. It's so, so easy to extract near match levels of accuracy from this lovely pistol, at not silly money. And it has firearms looks, although not a replica.

If you value the resemblance to full bore pistols more, I'm no expert on the Umarex pistols, and there are lots of other peeps on here with the knowledge.

However, I love the looks of the Colt pistols, especially the gunmetal grey one (can't remember the proper title now!)

And, I can really see myself falling for a James Bond-esque PPK one day. Nice and cheap, too. But it only shoots bbs from its smoothbore barrel, so will not be as accurate. Good fun, though!

[Hollowpoint]

Personally im not a big fan of the umarex pistols The ones ive used seem to fail quite often and they are expensive IMO. Since you aren't sure if pistol shooting is your cup of tea why not start with something a bit cheaper but equally fun? I really like my crosman 357! Ok so the quality isn't amazing but its robust and reliable and they cost probably half what an umarex does. Accuracy is good and while not a replica its dirty harry looks are kinda fun.

[oling]

Personally im not a big fan of the umarex pistols The ones ive used seem to fail quite often and they are expensive IMO. Since you aren't sure if pistol shooting is your cup of tea why not start with something a bit cheaper but equally fun? I really like my crosman 357! Ok so the quality isn't amazing but its robust and reliable and they cost probably half what an umarex does. Accuracy is good and while not a replica its dirty harry looks are kinda fun.

Whilst I've never seen one of them fail, I think that that is a really good idea. The equivalent 586 costs somewhere in the region of £200 as opposed to the Crosman 357 (which actually isn't far behind in terms of performance) gets you shooting for around £70. That's far less of an investment if you just want an idea if the whole pistol thing's for you

[TheWilding]

My garden is very short, and although would be safe to shoot here, would offer no challenge whatsoever for rifles, and therefor no fun

Ummmm, have you even tried 6yd rifle standing?? You are aware a 6yd rifle standing bull is .5mm in diameter? Its a bloody challenge I can assure you, especially if you shoot springers!

Bell Target is only shot over 6 or 7 yds at an 8.5mm hole, with rifles, mostly springers but some PCPs, a tad easier, but still a challenge to do consistently, and most rewarding when you do ring the bell.


I call shenanigans on your "no challenge whatsoever for rifles", maybe so for a scoped PCP, try it with a springer and diopters

Re your pistol choice ..... I play alot of airsoft, stay away from the airsoft pistols if you want accuracy, even the good ones are poor at best


Sean

[Owillingham]

Ummmm, have you even tried 6yd rifle standing?? You are aware a 6yd rifle standing bull is .5mm in diameter? Its a bloody challenge I can assure you, especially if you shoot springers!

Bell Target is only shot over 6 or 7 yds at an 8.5mm hole, with rifles, mostly springers but some PCPs, a tad easier, but still a challenge to do consistently, and most rewarding when you do ring the bell.


I call shenanigans on your "no challenge whatsoever for rifles", maybe so for a scoped PCP, try it with a springer and diopters

Re your pistol choice ..... I play alot of airsoft, stay away from the airsoft pistols if you want accuracy, even the good ones are poor at best


Sean

I'll be honest, I've never tried shooting my rifle at 6yards, never even thought about it. Figured if I was that close I could hit my target with a hammer...

It is a scoped PCP that I have, If I had an open sighted springer I think I'd definitely give it a go, but I really like the idea of trying pistol shooting in the garden and am really tempted by the Umarex 92fs now. I think I will wait until I can find a second hand all black model for the right price, that way if I loose interest or realise that I simply can't improve (I'm sure I'm going to be surprised just how hard it is to get tight groups with a pistol), hopefuly I will be able to sell it on again without any real loss.

[blooregard]

I have a Umarex 92. Its big and feels solid in the hand but being a revolver on the inside it just seems like a very over priced toy, the replica side of things is ruined by having awful moulded controls and a mechanism that requires the slide to open up to load. I keep mine because it is the only multishot pistol I have capable of mounting a silencer.

If you want paper punching accuracy I would avoid a Umarex pistol, if you want fun blasting tins I would also avoid them. You could probably buy a more accurate 2240 and a GSG92 for a similar price to a Umarex and have decent accuracy and decent fun.

For shooting tins and spinners most BB pistols are more than up to the job.. They make far better replicas and are not dead in the hand to shoot either, granted they are not as well made but they are almost at a disposable price (that said, I've only ever had one problem that needed a new part and that was a seal on my Witness).

[Aimstraight]

If possible get to a good shop to handle the pistols, and even better try some out (possible at a few shops that have a small test range, but more likely at a club or with a friend). Don’t worry about picking ONE, because you are probably going to end up with more in the long term!

The 92fs has real presence, is huge and heavy, but it not the best umerex 8 shot for accuracy or smoothness of trigger (CP88 is better). Good thing about the umerex rotary 8 shot pistols is that if your collection of guns increases, so does the number of mags – which also fits the Umerex Under Lever Action rifle (Winchester)

If you fancy a revolver type, then the Umerex 586 is a quality pistol, very accurate with a really nice trigger in single and double action, this uses a 10 shot rotary mag. This is a very nice pistol, and will last many years; even a ten year old used one can perform like new. As mentioned, Crosman do a more basic version which I expect is also accurate.

The downside of any CO2 gun is once gassed up, there is the obligation to ‘use up’ the gas, which encourages firing loads of pellets or BBs, which can be a waste of ammo, gas and money; but that’s the price of a fun gun/convenient CO2 power source.

If you want accuracy above all, then the HW40 is fantastic, and not expensive (around £90 used). This is a single shot PCA, slows you down so does not waste pellets and is very satisfying to place one pellet on top of the other time after time! Alternatively you could go for single shot spring powered, more powerful, but less accurate due to the recoil (HW45, Webley Tempest, Premier, Junior etc...)

The ultimate fun guns are the semi-auto CO2 BB guns (4.5mm metal or 6mm plastic), especially the blowback type like the TFW 1911, but BB guns are smoothbore and less accurate, and prone to more rebounds. Having said that, some of the long barrel BB pistols are surprisingly accurate at short range (e.g. 4" and 6" Dan Wesson). As mentioned BB gun functionality might be more faithful to the real article, but construction/type of metals and action is on the whole maybe not as good (although the Baikal is built like a brick what not). If you want accuracy forget the PPK/S (though it is a barrel of laughs to use).

Pellet shooters (even relatively low powered umerex rotary 8 shot) will work on small metal knock down targets, whereas I would not want to use steel BBs on such targets due to rebounds; so pellet shooters are arguably more versatile.

(Sorry fella, I beat you to buying the black 92fs from JaspSP5, it is very nice with wood grips. Not sure why photobucket keeps rotating my pictures... http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps27d92577.jpg)

[Owillingham]

If at possible get to a good shop to handle the pistols, and even better try some out (possible at a few shops that have a small test range, but more likely at a club or with a friend). Don’t worry about picking ONE, because you are probably going to end up with more in the long term!

The 92fs has real presence, is huge and heavy, but it not the best umerex 8 shot for accuracy or smoothness of trigger (CP88 is better). Good thing about the umerex rotary 8 shot pistols is that if your collection of guns increases, so does the number of mags – which also fits the Umerex Under Lever Action rifle (Winchester)

If you fancy a revolver type, then the Umerex 586 is a quality pistol, very accurate with a really nice trigger in single and double action, this uses a 10 shot rotary mag. This is a very nice pistol, and will last many years; even a ten year old used one can perform like new. As mentioned, Crosman do a more basic version which I expect is also accurate.

The downside of any CO2 gun is once gassed up, there is the obligation to ‘use up’ the gas, which encourages firing loads of pellets or BBs, which can be a waste of ammo, gas and money; but that’s the price of a fun gun/convenient CO2 power source.

If you want accuracy above all, then the HW40 is fantastic, and not expensive (around £90 used). This is a single shot PCA, slows you down so does not waste pellets and is very satisfying to place one pellet on top of the other time after time! Alternatively you could go for single shot spring powered, more powerful, but less accurate due to the recoil (HW45, Webley Tempest, Premier, Junior etc...)

The ultimate fun guns are the semi-auto CO2 BB guns (4.5mm metal or 6mm plastic), especially the blowback type like the TFW 1911, but BB guns are smoothbore and less accurate, and prone to more rebounds. Having said that, some of the long barrel BB pistols are surprisingly accurate at short range (e.g. 4" and 6" Dan Wesson). As mentioned BB gun functionality might be more faithful to the real article, but construction/type of metals and action is on the whole maybe not as good (although the Baikal is built like a brick what not). If you want accuracy forget the PPK/S (though it is a barrel of laughs to use).

Pellet shooters (even relatively low powered umerex rotary 8 shot) will work on small metal knock down targets, whereas I would not want to use steel BBs on such targets due to rebounds; so pellet shooters are arguably more versatile.

(Sorry fella, I beat you to buying the black 92fs from JaspSP5, it is very nice with wood grips. Not sure why photobucket keeps rotating my pictures... http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps27d92577.jpg)

Thank you, that comment is really informative and has given me plenty to think about. I have just been looking at reviews of the HW40 and HW45, and am now seriously considering the HW45, I'm liking the idea of a bit of recoil where its a springer (figured it would make it more fun to shoot), and reading the reviews should be very accurate once a proper technique is mastered. Like I said before, I don't mind missing when I know its me at fault, but would get really frustrated if the gun wouldn't shoot straight no matter how good I became, and I've got the feeling from the reviews that this wouldn't be an issue. I like the sound of how heavy and well built it is, and looking at images it looks pretty sweet too. The only downside I can see, is that its obviously only single shot, but I'm not going to find a pistol to tick all the boxes so may end up with a repeater at a later date, at least I wouldn't have to buy CO2 as well. Anyone reading this own a HW45 and can give me their own opinions?

[Aimstraight]

Sure there will be plenty of useful comments coming back on the HW45. I do not have one, I have seen them in the shop...now they are huge . All I know is that the later ones have a dual power setting (half and full), this seems to the best option because full power can be difficult to master at first due to the recoil

[airgunnut]

The HW 45 is a beast to handle but with practice it's very accurate and rewarding, forget .22 it's usless in pistols (unless you live somewhere where it can be over 6 foot pounds) a 2 handed grip is recommended to handle the recoil (it's funny that the the piston moves toward the rear of the pistol on firing but the barrel has a shoulder (at the muzzle end) to help prevent the barrel from moving forward, do not lube the pellets as the lube can ignite in the back of the pellet and then only god knows where it's going to land, the advertised power it just under 6 foot pounds but in reality is about 4.5 flbs, these pistols were once advertised as bomb proof, with a little T.L.C every so often your grand kids will be shooting it long after your pushing up the daisy's!
Edit, at 10 m half power shoots higher than full power

[thisisdonald]

Im surprised no-one has mentioned the makarov yet.. Im sure one of the Mak boys will be along to lure you to the dark side.. My dad has one but he wont let me shoot it for some reason -I think he thinks Ill be nicking it off him if I get a taste for it!!... Oh well.. itll be mine one day!!