Have I been spoiled...

[Davy]

I recently bought a used Smith and Wesson 586 (6" matt finish) and so far am not greatly impressed...

Having read up on it before splashing out I was under the impression that these were among the best CO2 revolvers on the market?!?!

I fear that the problem is that I have a Webley Alecto and that it has ruined me for anything less...

With the Alecto I group consistently around 10-15mm at 6 yards, with the 586 I am struggling to group inside 50mm at 6 yards (yes I'm manually cocking it before each shot). I'm pretty sure my technique isn't that bad (I've shot both bench rested with not much better results).

Is this gun not up to the hype, am I doing something wrong or has the Alecto ruined me??

Comments and opinions welcomed...

[airgunnut]

Sounds like your treating the s&w like a target pistol, (big mistake) its a fun gun treat it like one, point at target, keep pulling trigger untill magazine/cylinder is empty, walk away with big grin!! ( pumping the trigger as fast as I can results in groupings of about 8" At 10m (I can just keep all shots on a 10m pistol target card)) in single shot, taking my time I can get all 10 shots in the black of a 10m pistol target (last night I got a 47 out of 50 with my fwb c10)

[Davy]

Yeah, I'm a sucker for accuracy!!

I was just hoping for more, if this is one of the best how bad are all the others!?!?

Edit: not saying it isn't fun and big grin generating, just thought it could do more if you pushed it

[airgunnut]

Beleve it or not the most accurate co2 "fun gun" I have used is a crosman 3576 they are about £60 new, they feel cheap but I got over 100 shots per cylinder and it peed all over the other co2 pistols accuracy wise.
This should help http://co2airguns.net/collection/index.htm

[oling]

I recently acquired a S&W 586 and it is very accurate for a co2 repeater I can guarantee. The fact that you're getting poor groups is either 1) Your gun is faulty or 2) (sorry in advance for this) you're not shooting it right. Having shot a tempest repeatedly for a long time I found the transition to co2 repeaters fairly easy (as believe it or not, but the SA trigger is far better than the tempest's). With the 586 in SA freehand I can consistently group 1 inch at 10 yards with the iron sights and cheap H&N econs/RWS Hobbys. Rested I can get half inch groups or better no problem so it's not the gun. I guess the answer to your question is yes you have been spoiled by a dedicated pneumatic target pistol. Whereas for me, I went from a difficult springer to co2 which I found much easier.

I really don't mean to be condescending in any sense whatsoever but I went along to my first club the other day and on my second visit there was a co2 pistol competition going on and everyone was competing including the club competitor. Now maybe it's just because I've not had too much to do with rifles until recently and I've spent many an afternoon pushing the limits of my co2 pistols (Umarex 1911 & 586 6 inch) shooting SA and at times (for a challenge) DA 15-20yds at a knockdown target but when I was asked to compete, nobody could believe that the Umarex pistol was capable of what it was... The club range had two knockdown targets at 8 yds and a timer that the shooter had to start and stop. Average score was 2/8 in around 30 seconds. I was quite nervous (lol) so didn't put in a great performance at all and still hit 6/8 in 18 seconds. I'm confident with practice I could get it down to 7 or 8 out of 8 in about 10 seconds. Please don't interpret this as me trying to brag but use this to highlight the fact that the Umarex pistols are nowhere near as inaccurate as the vast majority of people claim, it's just that they haven't put the time and effort into learning how to shoot them and always dismiss the gun as being the 'problem'. I found this with the majority of shooters who all shot pcps because they don't relish the challenge and skill involved but rather the clinical ease with which you can deliver pellet on pellet accuracy. Each to their own I guess but my point is that if you do put in the time with the Umarex pistols, they will reward you with very good (though admittedly not match pistol level) accuracy.

Oli

[Davy]

I've got no problem being told that I'm not doing it right, I've never shot CO2 before (mainly .270 centre fire rifle and occasionally the Alecto for a bit of fun).

Do CO2's require a certain technique? I'm fine with the Alecto and can group well with it (I'm not new to shooting, and have been doing so for the last 18 years).

The results you are achieving are what I was hoping for with the 586.

Any other 586 users out there with a view on this?

[oling]

The main problem is steadying your hand while you pull the trigger as the trigger tends to be a lot less smooth and a fair bit heavier. I've found that the hold is less important but that consistent, crisp trigger control and a strong, stable stance are the most important. I can't shoot at all well single-handed because I can't steady the gun well so I use a combat grip for the co2 pistols (the same one used by the vast majority of shooters of the real steel firearm counterparts). I stand square to the target and wrap my hands round the gun to get as much contact as possible and as such the most control as possible. I have my thumbs aligned on top of one another with my right thumb on top of my left. Then for me, it's about breathing and consistent trigger control and release. Other more technical things I do are slightly elevate my point of aim (especially in cooler temperatures/ rapid fire shooting) as I shoot because I know that the co2 cooling effect reduces my velocity and lowers my P.O.I. However, my biggest piece of advice would be practise practise practise!! I only felt that I semi-mastered my 1911 after around 2000 rounds (and around 30 co2s) but I'm still constantly improving. One of the best tests I found was shooting at paper 2cm rifle bullseyes at around 15-20 yds where my mate would select on for me to shoot and I'd try and find it. He'd then tell me by how much I was off the target so that I could put in a better follow-up shot. It's good to experiment. I've found that the learning curve for pistols is infinitely steeper than for rifles but given your wealth of experience, you'll definitely find a way to get there.

Oli

[Davy]

I've done a bit more research and it seems that the gap between the magazine and the barrel can be reduced (mines about .75mm), this limits the amount of escaping CO2 when fired, any one done this? What can I reduce the gap to?

[eyebull]

Like all other airguns, they also have a preferred pellet....what are you using?
Mine likes RWS Hobbies, doesn't like gecos or H+N FTTs at all. And it shoots much better when the pellets have been seated properly in the mag. I use a custom little gizmo but you could use a biro for the same results.
Also oddly enough some of the umarex repeaters can be more accurate in DA than SA....

[beagle2]

If all that you are intarested in is making high scors the alecto is the one for you people will argue with me on this but I say you need no shooting skill to shoot a pcp type of gun just the ability to hold your hand still as you squeeze the trigger.

Co2 guns are a little harder as they do tend to flip a little when fired but for shooting that requires some degree of skill as we are unable to have proper cartrige firing hand guns the best option that is oppen to us is spring guns webley tempest type that only with lots of practice can you get to be good at shooting them as when you pull the trigger they do not just go pop and the pellet hits the target they jump in your hand and learning to overcome that is where the skill comes in to it for me.

[ikarma70]

Essentially as the other guys have said, the smith and the Alecto are different horses for courses.
The Alecto will always be more accurate if everything is working well, the direct breech feed will always give more accuracy if you use the best pellet for it. The power source is more consistent as air is less temperature sensitive.

[Davy]

Like all other airguns, they also have a preferred pellet....what are you using?
Mine likes RWS Hobbies, doesn't like gecos or H+N FTTs at all. And it shoots much better when the pellets have been seated properly in the mag. I use a custom little gizmo but you could use a biro for the same results.
Also oddly enough some of the umarex repeaters can be more accurate in DA than SA....

I'm using "H&N Finale Match" in it at the moment, I'll have to try a few others to see if that makes a difference (they're superb in the Alecto). I'll also have to try your DA theory (although I'd be surprised).

Cheers, Davy

[Davy]

If all that you are intarested in is making high scors the alecto is the one for you people will argue with me on this but I say you need no shooting skill to shoot a pcp type of gun just the ability to hold your hand still as you squeeze the trigger.

Co2 guns are a little harder as they do tend to flip a little when fired but for shooting that requires some degree of skill as we are unable to have proper cartrige firing hand guns the best option that is oppen to us is spring guns webley tempest type that only with lots of practice can you get to be good at shooting them as when you pull the trigger they do not just go pop and the pellet hits the target they jump in your hand and learning to overcome that is where the skill comes in to it for me.

surely the basis of all shooting is "the ability to hold your hand still as you squeeze the trigger"??

WRT to the flip, does that not take place after the pellet has left the barrel due to the gas coming out behind the pellet?

Cheers, Davy

[Davy]

Essentially as the other guys have said, the smith and the Alecto are different horses for courses.
The Alecto will always be more accurate if everything is working well, the direct breech feed will always give more accuracy if you use the best pellet for it. The power source is more consistent as air is less temperature sensitive.

I'm not expecting the Wesson to be as good as the Alecto but I was hoping for more TBH, I'll try using some different pellet types and see how that goes.

[eyebull]

I'm using "H&N Finale Match" in it at the moment, I'll have to try a few others to see if that makes a difference (they're superb in the Alecto). I'll also have to try your DA theory (although I'd be surprised).

Cheers, Davy

It's an indexing thing - sometimes if they aren't set up just right it will misalign when shooting in SA, with big effects on accuracy.