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Thread: Zeiss HD5 5-25x50, Sightron S3 6-24x50 and S-TAC 2.5-17.5x56 comparison

  1. #1
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    Post Zeiss HD5 5-25x50, Sightron S3 6-24x50 and S-TAC 2.5-17.5x56 comparison

    As i mentioned recently in my quick comparison of the old Conquest to the new version, the HD5, the new series continues on that tradition of american-influenced 1' elegant hunting scopes. The 3-15 version I've already looked at so today I'm concentrating on the larger 5-25 model with the varmint ladder ret and the big clicky turrets with a zero stop feature


    Starting with the first impressions, this is really one of the finest looking scopes you'll ever see, smacking of euro quality and elegance. Somehow even with turrets sporting 15 MOA per turn, you don't feel at all that this is a big bulky tactical scope. The thing is though, it'll do that tactical stuff! Somehow Zeiss have got 65 MOA range in to this 1" tube. It's square, too, so at the top of your elevation you aren't limiting your windage range at all, which is 40 MOA. That is outstanding and a very welcome feature

    Here's a folder of pics: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/e6n0w3iy2...UZgjJNNSMhx7Ua

    I'm not vaguely interested in zero stop but it is very popular and this scope sports it. What it means is that if you have cranked say three turns on for shooting a loopy 308 to 1200y, you can just blindly twist down and you turret will stop at your zero point. You cant be a whole turn too low, for example.
    Now Zeiss have incorporated that in these beautifully-finished turrets but there is a bit of catch. It's only "1turn " zero stop. It stops you at zero and then 1rotation later. So you can only get about 15moa on before you run out of room. So for a fast flat cal like a 204 where you'll never be dialling 15moa on, you're not limited. Yet a 1000y calibre is going to need more dope than that so you'd have to remove the little screw that removes the zero stop facility. Still, better than nothing in my opinion.


    For me this scope fits in a useful niche. When you want a good scope for hunting that needs to be dial-able and yet mustn't be some god awful tactical scope with big bits of knurling and knobs sticking out left right and centre. Not too heavy, either! Normally you end up with a 1' scope with lo pro useless turrets, very limited internal adjustments etc...These HD5s really bridge that gap wonderfully offering 1" hunting rifle elegance but with some real long range potential thrown in too.


    Optically, they are progress from the impressive old version except in field of view. They offer anti-water smear coatings which are very handy. As you zoom in, the sight picture remains completely perfect and there is zero tunnelling at the bottom end.




    At this point i'm going to start comparing to Sightrons, both the S3 6-24x50 IR and the S-TAC 2.5-17.5x56 IR These have been tested and compared day and night side by side with the HD5 and offer a very different perspective. Comparing these different scopes should give us a better idea of the real strengths and weaknesses of the HD5 5-25 we're reviewing here.










    On the more target and varmint-orientated Sightrons, the weight is about the same realm as the big HD5. You're saving at least 6oz on a Nightforce and other full-on tactical scopes.
    They are 30mm and also have turrets offering 15moa per turn but no Zero Stop. Internal adjustment is very generous and they are known to have outstanding resolution and edge to edge sharpness.
    The first thing one notices is the focus snaps in and out very well. I say well because i like a fussy focus; i adjust it until it pops just right and i'm happy. Foxers have said to me though that they prefer a less fussy system that doesn't need tweaking all the time so if a fox runs 100y the focus will still be on. This is the case with the Zeiss and not the Sightrons. I personally much prefer the Sightron system as it is fussier but sharper but many will prefer the greater depth of field of the HD5.




    I compared at great length the Sightron S3 6-24x50 to the latest S-TAC 2.5-17.5x56. The S-TAC is inseparable from the S3, which is interesting, The S3 does have a fussier eye box but that makes sense given that it has higher mag so the exit pupil shrinks and of course it is a 50mm not a 56mm like the S-TAC.
    The Sightron S3 does everything well. The big wow factor is resolution. Everything else is really solid too. So many are sold because they tick so many boxes for so many people! Res, edge to edge, eye box, build quality, light weight, turrets, easy to reset the zero, loads of internal adjustment, perfect ret, sorted IR.
    It's exactly the same deal with the S-TAC but with an even less fussy eye box! Field of view also seems more or less identical
    It is worth commending Sightron on keeping the cost of the S-TAC down. They've done this by moving some of the assembly to the Philippines which of course sends shudders down the spines of optics lovers. I can say here though that side by side with the Japanese S3 the difference is not noticeable by this tester in high light and last light and everything else in between! Indeed the S-TAc is pound for pound less fussy due to the lower mag and bigger objective




    On a long range precision rifle, the ret on the Sightrons is just perfect - that floating centre dot is just right. The more regular ret on the Zeiss scopes will be much preferred for larger game though


    This particular version of the Zeiss HD5 5-25x50 sports the Varmint Rapid-Z tree ret, enabling quick dope out to considerable distance as its holdover lines match up to your trajectory. The finer matching of this is done by working out what mag you need to be on for your trajectory to match the lines just right.This is done on the free tool at the Zeiss website and once you know what mag to use it works flawlessly. There are different types of "tree" to match various calibres. Clearly the one for 204 ruger and 22.250 is very different to the one tuned for 308....


    In the field shooting rabbits out to about 450y, the famous Sightron resolution was much more important to me than the superior last light contrast of the Zeiss scopes, as i need every last drop of resolution to pick out the small targets. The last light contrast on the Zeiss would certainly be magic for a deer rifle though, or foxing at dusk.


    On the Zeiss, well the strong point there is the poor light performance and contrast. They don't score especially well for out and out resolution or brightness but when the conditions start to challenge they hang in there remarkably well.




    With regard to flare control (looking toward sunset etc) and stray light control all these scope are classy. The HD5s are the most adept at controlling any and all issues and giving you the clear ret and sight picture you need. There is a period as the light first starts to dim when the S3 (not the S-TAC) can produce some ghosting towards max mag but this is actually only noticeable for a few mins then stops being apparent in the darker light when the still-good resolution and the nicely variable illuminated ret enable you to still shoot perfectly well. The HD5s just plough on, though, and are just not troubled at any time by any stray light from either in front or behind.






    It is worth noting that these are great scopes, each having a speciality but all are really good.
    However, an Alpha scope will humiliate them in many areas. My IOR 9-36 was just so much wider, so much brighter, so much clearer as to raise a giggle from the testers at dusk! That's what happens when you spend twice as much. A Zeiss Victory has about 25% more field of view alone.
    So the Sightrons have the resolution to let you shoot in last light, the HD5 has the contrast to let you shoot in last light but both take a lot of looking and straining if compared directly to the IOR. That has BOTH and much much more fov besides so the image just jumps out at you, relatively speaking.


    So optically there is a step up the ladder left beyond these scopes here.
    What is doubly relevant is how much better these scopes are over scopes just a few hundred pounds cheaper. The Sightron has resolution to rival any target scope, and the coatings on the HDs are just pure top drawer.




    It is also worth noting that i tried a cheap but well-regarded scope at dusk when i was trying to split hairs between the Sightrons and the HD5s (and the IOR was making it look easy) The cheap scope was totally unusable. It seemed to reflect stray light from the distant house behind the shooter on to the ocular, making it a total reflective mess. And the image downrange when it could be made out was so soft and dark as to be unusable.




    I'm not wanting to be negative about anything here. It's just a "this is the best scope ever" review doesn't take in to account all the variables, including spending thousands of pounds. I think a realistic appraisal of these scopes' strengths and weaknesses at different price points is more useful.




    So....as a hunting scope - HD5, definitely. As a precision varminter or target scope - the Sightrons have it easily


    I certainly struggle to think of many scopes in the HD5's class that can offer what it offers!
    Likewise the Sightrons, especially the brilliant 7x mag range S-TAC, are just magic.


    I recommend these scopes for sure. I hope this has proven useful in discerning some of the differences between these various models.
    Last edited by richness; 05-01-2015 at 10:00 AM. Reason: link to pictures added
    Marksmanship = Accuracy, Consistency, Observation and a little of The Force
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  2. #2
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    Hi Rich.
    A really good and honest review.

    It doesnt suprise me that the Sightron rates so highly in terms of optical resolution.
    They are excellent and you would have to spend a hell of a lot more dosh to get a noticible gain in performance.

    Being honest, there are a couple of things which put me off from buying the S3 Sightron - these are,

    Firstly, The copper coloured windage and elevation markings - I know only cosmetic - BUT it just looks tacky on such a good scope.

    Second - and again, just my opinion... The windage and elvation clicks feel a little tinny and sloppy - compared to the PM2 or NF NXS's.... You must have certainly noticed this when compared to your big IOR.
    My own Zeiss victory after four years of twiddling, the clicks are razor sharp and snap loud and proud when adjusted. This certianly doesn't affect the performance and tracking ability of the Sightron. But it just doesnt feel robust.

    Last thing - is the criticality of the focus - As you said on the review - you prefer it you snap into focus. While this might be perfect shooting at distant quarry on a hillside - I personally dont like this feature for foxing, especially lamping, where the fox can appear at any range and is often on the move.

    On the lamp , my Zeiss Victory 6-24x56 gets turned to 12 mag and the parallax set at 150 yrds...everything from 30 rds to 350 yrds is really clear and I dont spend any time trying to focus the picture on the scope. I lost more than a few foxes with my previous two 8-32 NXS's due to this reason

    The new S-Tac looks a great scope and if they get round to producing a higher mag version , it could make it on to my shopping list. I did almost buy the new HD 5-25 Zeiss but in the end went for the RZ Meopta 6-24x56. This is a superb scope that ticks alot of the boxes without spending S&B PM2 money. Your welcome to do a review or comparision test on it.


    Thanks for taking the time for the scope review.



    ATB
    Alan

  3. #3
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks Alan
    Yes when you own a Victory I suppose it gives you perspective on all the other scopes' pros and cons
    Guys who have them seem to still buy the little S-TACs and I can see why - they just go great on anything - from a rimmy up!
    And as you say, they have binned the old-school (NF BR) gold lettering that everyone hates apart from me.
    The focus thing is interesting - no way most scopes are that focus unfussy - it's just one of the little advantages of an Alpha scope that add up when the pressure is on
    I suppose the Victory must be like combining the HD5 with the S3, stirring in some extra field of view and voila. 3x the £ but an investment for life.... That's if they have the turrets right that particular year I am particular interested in high mag range scopes though. If i could have a 7x mag range like the S-TAC but with Victory glass, IOR turrets and ret, March illumination and the weight of the S3 for about £1500 I'd find the money tomorrow....Imagine a 5-35 under 28oz with victory glass and clicky turrets and a floating dot.... My old IOR 4-28 40mm tube was bloody close but hey that thing must have been 40oz lol

    I'm interested to try the Meopta 6-24 (I have one on the way) as that looks like it might be really something

    Thanks for your input, Rich
    Marksmanship = Accuracy, Consistency, Observation and a little of The Force
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  4. #4
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    This HD5 is on my .17HMR:
    http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...9/IMG_5160.jpg
    http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...9/IMG_5153.jpg
    This the smaller HD5 3-15x42 and I almost prefer it over the 5-25x50 as it less fussy. Both are 50m parallax start which isn't the end of the world but does mean you can't use max magnification under 50m if you want perfect sharp picture. This parallax also isn't compatible with digi NV add-ons. The HD5 3-15x42 is a cute scope with fantastic optics. Mine has the Zeiss Plex which is what I like because what more do you need when you can dial? Dialing is pretty brilliant even for .17HMR as when you have the time you can make the most of the .17hmr inherent accuracy. Being a small light weight scope it compliments the annie brilliantly. Just love this combination.

    I also have the HD5 5-25x50 on my new build .223. I wanted a light weight scope that dialed for my sporting weight rifle. The HD5 certainly meets the bill and the locking turrets are just perfect for the field.

    I also have Zeiss Victories. Now these are a whole level up from the HD5's in every category. The HD5's are typical of so many modern scopes in this price bracket. I really rate them, but they do have some limitations; especially when compared to the Victory. They are a bit eye position critical at higher mag. The eye box isn't as forgiving. Its a real must to have them perfectly set up on the right height mounts and correctly matched to your head position/cheek weld. At least the eye relief is fixed unlike some other scopes when you change the magnification. They are also plenty parallax needy at times. The feel of the clicks is a bit light and I use the turret markings. The zoom ring is on the stiffer side (well one is, the other just about perfect). The light gathering is pretty fantastic in daylight and even more so at night or over a white light led torch; but the Victory are a leap better. Nothing above I have not found on similar priced scopes, and its nota criticism. My Bushnell 6500 is close but not as good; and they don't come with those all important locking turrets.

    I was zeroing the other day my HMR and Sig 522. The .22 Sig has a Mamba Lite for my NV add-on. Nice bright day to zero. Wow the Mamba was pants in comparison. For tac driving precision zeroing best glass is the biz to get that pin sharp image. Again the Mamba sucked. The HD5 just shone.

    Anyhow, I think these HD5 are pretty fantastic all round. For once a feature rich scope that isn't a brick. Just remember to buy them with the locking target turrets.
    Last edited by Muskett; 27-06-2014 at 10:14 PM.

  5. #5
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks Muskett - that is a really useful addition mate. I have a 3-15 on my hummer too and it is a lovely scope. As you say, look for more in the price bracket and you'll come up short. I agree that they are a better bet than Elite 6500 2.5-16x50 and that's a scope i rate highly.
    I wonder if anyone has compared one carefully to a Weaver Super Slam 4-20 and a Swarovski Z5 ? I'd be interested in those comparisons
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  6. #6
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    Pics added now guys
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  7. #7
    Parabuteo is offline My Chrony has bought it a couple of times...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir-slots-alot View Post
    Hi Rich.
    A really good and honest review.

    It doesnt suprise me that the Sightron rates so highly in terms of optical resolution.
    They are excellent and you would have to spend a hell of a lot more dosh to get a noticible gain in performance.

    Being honest, there are a couple of things which put me off from buying the S3 Sightron - these are,

    Firstly, The copper coloured windage and elevation markings - I know only cosmetic - BUT it just looks tacky on such a good scope.

    Alan
    Great review Richness.

    I have to agree with the comments above. The F/TR world champs a while back were won with an 8-32x56 and the man involved is still using one. The only difference being he has a .25moa click in the windage and 8th on the elevation....that would confuse the hell out of me.

    We had a rush of Marches in our club with massive mags etc, oddly the results don't seem to have improved

    My one real niggle with sightrons is the numbering and engraving on the turrets.

    Many scopes now have clear, readable info on the vernier, allowing elevation and windage to be set/dialled up easily every time, but often the stadia are too fine or close together.

    Sightrons is well spaced, uses a logical 10moa rotation, but the elevation marking is all to cock (goes 3-2-1-0-1-2-3....pointless, elevation starts at 0 and goes up!!).

    This is easy to fix by simply covering the lettering with fine graphics tape (turrets pop off easily) and either re marking with a fine marker of just accepting that the bottom one is 0 and so on. They must have intended this as I wound mine down to zero and the 0 mark on the elevation drum coincided nicely with the vertical stadia, the bottom edge of the drum kissing the 0 stadia as it should.

    The colouring is ridiculous but easily remedied. Take the turrets off and fill the engraving with either white enamel, or use one of those white paint pens.

    While it is nearly dry, simply wipe off the stuff with some solvent on a cuetip leaving the white in the engraving. It works really well and looks much better/is much clearer.

    Its only cosmetic if you set and forget, the target dot scopes are usually dialled during a shoot (as would anything for field/tac use be).

    I have also re marked my turrets with the up/dn direction (so they are obvious in the firing position) and have done the windage numbers dual direction (as we now see on the comp niteforces scopes as an option) so you know the value/direction depending on which side of the columns counts up/down.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not thick, but we usually dial shots all of which is recorded on plot sheets, it is not normal to aim off so much with F/TR as the wind has more effect on the .308 so you might find yourself forcing the rifle on target. We don't have a joystick like the open effers (not in wide use in any event). Anything that may help stop you going the wrong way is a bonus.

    All of this needs to be clear and easily read under comp pressure.

    Zero stops....

    Lazy/unnecessary/Gimic.

    Only any good if you count clicks which is pointless if you have a good vernier to read. Moreover, if your reference zero is at 100, you rarely return to it and if you need to set it in a hurry it is far easier and less open to mistakes if you dial it.

    What if you use different scopes and forget how many MOA per turn or use different loads for different jobs?

    If you need a stop to find out where to start counting from (because you wont set it at 300 will you...what if you need to go closer) you may as well wind it all the way down anyway.

    No, scopes at this end of the market (top end) should dial every time.

    I use an MTC Viper on my old .308 and it is getting replaced by another 8-32x56 LRTD/TDT simply because I cannot dial with the push/pull turret setup on the viper. The only info is on the drums but it was not designed for dialled shooting (as it goes, its a £100 rifle, but shoots as well as many and has beaten people with dedicated or far more expensive F/TR rifles at shorter ranges, so I figured backup scope/get the best out of the rifle).

    What I would like to do (and probably will later) is to shim the windage turret a tad so that the edge of the turret lines up with the zero windage vernier (once wind zeroed obviously). This makes for a clearer post shoot reset, but the turret grub screws engage on a coned surface to keep things tight, so the only option is to place shims under the turret. If you need to go the other way I guess you would need a tad taken out of the turret knob.....

    Some manufacturers (notably Sightron) could do a lot worse than to address the marking of turrets making them easier to use and fit for multi purpose (where their expected purpose might include range/windage setting) rather than set and forget.
    I'm a maggot in another life you know

  8. #8
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    Truly excellent reviews Rich.

    Very insightful. Thank you.

    "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son" Dean Wormer.

  9. #9
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    Here is a picture of my HD5 5-25x50 on my Rem 700 based custom .223; the stock is the featherweight McMillan:
    http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/z...9/IMGP4608.jpg

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