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Thread: Can Anyone Make Any Sense or Decipher the Bottom Line of this Branded on a Stock

  1. #1
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    Can Anyone Make Any Sense or Decipher the Bottom Line of this Branded on a Stock

    Have a look at some photographs of my original India Pattern Musket (Brown Bess) does the branding in the stock mean anything to a Canadian member, as far as I can ascertain it was one of 3000 sent by the Tower of London to arm the Militia in Canada when the war of 1812 was about to kick off
    It was made by Robert Wheeler in 1799 Tower Proofed etc.
    The Tower of London couldn't supply the Militia in Canada with muskets from stock so they purchased any muskets of the correct calibre (.750") from any of the London gunmakers just to fulfil the request for arms from Canada.
    I suspect it was a weapon captured by the Americans and kept as a war trophy as I purchased it from New England and it's shows very little sign of being used.
    The top line of the brand is obvoiusly J Simpson
    But the bottom line is I don't have a clue what it means if it means anything!
    Link to albums which the photographs of the Musket are in: https://www.flickr.com/photos/fronte...7625353053007/

  2. #2
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    "Men occasionally stumble on the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened" Winston Churchill
    http://planetairgun.com/index.php

  3. #3
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    Try posting here.

    http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/

    These are the guys that should be able to answer your question.very knowledgeable on that time period and the weapons used .

  4. #4
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    that looks a very nice musket

  5. #5
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    'Tower' was not a proof-house, but an assembly point where all the many components came together. It was, after all, THE armoury for London. I've posted your request on canadiangunnuts.com [no, there's no need to thank me, I'd do it for anybody] and we'll see if anyone comes through with information. BTW, having half a million other guns to trawl through as well is not a great help.

    Just sayin'.

    EDIT - my pal Mooncoon on Vancouver Island has this to say so far -

    The name J Simpson does not sound like a boat name, otherwise I would have said it looks almost like a sealing gun from Newfoundland. What is the full inscription on the second line? I can't associate that with anything I can think of offhand

    cheers mooncoon

    Thank you. Sir.

    tac

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TA6319 View Post
    that looks a very nice musket
    Hi. TA6319
    It's in almost unfired condition, but other than the branding it has some scorch marks on the stock probably evidence of a camp fire or being kept over a mantel piece.
    The side plate is the same as a Baker rifle not the standard India pattern type so it was almost certainly built as a private purchase musket.
    The touch hole shows no erosion and the bore is also in very good condition and the browning is original as far as I can tell, it shows some wear on the left hand side where it would have chaffed against a back pack while marching.
    The browning also shows evidence of a socket bayonet being mounted.

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=tacfoley;6402320]'Tower' was not a proof-house, but an assembly point where all the many components came together. It was, after all, THE armoury for London.


    Hi. Tac
    The facility for the “Private Proof” of gun barrels at the Tower was available until about 1810, so the crossed sceptre & crown mark can be found on civilian firearms made until this date.
    Tower Private Proof marks – the crossed sceptres and crown stamped twice was used from c1740 until c1810.
    My India Pattern Musket was made in 1799 as it was purchased from Robert Wheeler who made it as a private purchase musket it bears the crossed sceptre & crown mark proof marks stamped twice.

    From about 1751 the Ordnance proof house, which was situated on Tower Wharf close to the Tower of London, started proving privately made civilian firearms.
    To differentiate between the Ordnance and civilian markings, the mark chosen for civilian or “Private Proof” was the crossed sceptres & crown, struck twice, one mark above the other - but without the Royal Cypher mark.
    This service had the added attraction of being available, at no extra cost, to “foreigners”, i.e., those gunmakers who did not work in London and were not bound by the membership rules of the London Gunmakers Company. As a consequence, the London Gunmakers Company lost revenue and eventually had to adjust its prices for proving arms.

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=Fronteria;6403220]
    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    'Tower' was not a proof-house, but an assembly point where all the many components came together. It was, after all, THE armoury for London.


    Hi. Tac
    The facility for the “Private Proof” of gun barrels at the Tower was available until about 1810, so the crossed sceptre & crown mark can be found on civilian firearms made until this date.
    Tower Private Proof marks – the crossed sceptres and crown stamped twice was used from c1740 until c1810.
    My India Pattern Musket was made in 1799 as it was purchased from Robert Wheeler who made it as a private purchase musket it bears the crossed sceptre & crown mark proof marks stamped twice.

    From about 1751 the Ordnance proof house, which was situated on Tower Wharf close to the Tower of London, started proving privately made civilian firearms.
    To differentiate between the Ordnance and civilian markings, the mark chosen for civilian or “Private Proof” was the crossed sceptres & crown, struck twice, one mark above the other - but without the Royal Cypher mark.
    This service had the added attraction of being available, at no extra cost, to “foreigners”, i.e., those gunmakers who did not work in London and were not bound by the membership rules of the London Gunmakers Company. As a consequence, the London Gunmakers Company lost revenue and eventually had to adjust its prices for proving arms.
    Thank you for that information.

    tac

  9. #9
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    Hi


    A possibility for this gun was that it was owned by one of those trading companies that operated like private armies in America and Canada , they went out to discover trade routes and supplies looking for the indigenous people of the region to trade with .
    So Simpson could be a company name or the name of the company owner / financer , 188 could be the number of the gun issued , and the other bit may be a county in the UK .
    Just a thought .

    Dave

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Simpson
    Last edited by Dave 101; 01-07-2014 at 02:32 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave 101 View Post
    Hi


    A possibility for this gun was that it was owned by one of those trading companies that operated like private armies in America and Canada , they went out to discover trade routes and supplies looking for the indigenous people of the region to trade with .
    So Simpson could be a company name or the name of the company owner / financer , 188 could be the number of the gun issued , and the other bit may be a county in the UK .
    Just a thought .

    Dave

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Simpson
    Hi. Dave
    That has got some substance as (Robert Wheeler Gunmaker, became Wheeler and Son after 1808) they were known to have supplied trade guns to The Hudson Bay Company and Robert and his son became arms dealers rather than gunmakers as they purchased 39,000 obsolete flintlock muskets which were sold in the colonies from Tower Armouries around 1839 when the percussion cap superseded the flintlock weapons.

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