Why do people want sporting power semi-auto PCPs? Are they for suppressive fire against columns of armoured rats?
Killer Vampire Lesbians on scooters
Sorry. It's very unusual for a law to make such a glaring mistake in terminology.Originally Posted by Terry D
So why are we allowed so many pump action and self loading rifles then? Is the law turning a blind eye?
Edit: I'm not being facetious, and the above may read that way. But what about the aforementioned S-16, the Skan Rifles etc, they're pump action! The Theoben SLR stands for "Self Loading Rifle". There's nothing in the law about it being self cocking. That brings many others into dispute without even mentioning the Drulov DU10 Eagle 5 shot, true semi automatic target rifle. Ok, that's not full power, but again the law as written mentions no power limitations at all.
Are all these section 5 now?
Last edited by tinbum; 30-06-2014 at 09:41 PM.
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may also be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocation dingle arm, to reduce sinusoidal repleneration
Why do people want sporting power semi-auto PCPs? Are they for suppressive fire against columns of armoured rats?
Killer Vampire Lesbians on scooters
I personally don't like multi shots of any sort. They encourage wastefulness and bring about dark humours of the soul. Have you ever met anyone with a multishot you liked?
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The SLR isn't 'self-loading', is it? You have to re-cock it to load it. Same for the S-16. Skan changed their design once the definition was clarified, and low-powered rifles aren't deemed to be a potential problem.
Of course there will always be interpretation based on perceived concerns, but the working definition has been established, along with a degree of latitude where this is deemed appropriate.
Overall, we have a workable law.
If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge
Killer Vampire Lesbians on scooters
So its ok to own, buy or sell a sub 12fpe skan?
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may also be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocation dingle arm, to reduce sinusoidal repleneration
I agree. It discourages precision. I used a semi-auto .22 LR rifle quite alot (targets only) and after the novelty wore off I went back to a bolt-action. It was far more satisfying to use. I also had a Drulov and Brno semi-auto air-pistols and they got sold as well. Precision is the joy of sport shooting, and repeaters discourage it. Professionals who hunt game animals rarely choose a semi-auto, and most target disciplines don't use them. The military and police who are obliged to use force will use whatever technology is necessary but that is a special application.I personally don't like multi shots of any sort. They encourage wastefulness and bring about dark humours of the soul. Have you ever met anyone with a multishot you liked?
As for 'fun', IMO it is much better to buy an electric airsoft and go full-auto at 'fun' targets. I had one of those for a while and it was a blast before it got boring. Spraying ammo downrange is ultimately nihilistic, just check out the New World goons on YouTube firing hundreds of rounds through their Chinese AKs till the woodwork catches fire.
Dark humour of the soul is right.
Last edited by Hsing-ee; 30-06-2014 at 10:12 PM.
Administrator
You mean one of the pre grip-action versions? I doubt you'd be prosecuted, but it's up to you.
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Terry
Last I read BASC cleared up the fact that sub12 semi auto is in fact legal, and right now its late for me to go search but it was right on this very forum.
They also cleared up you can NOT have a sec1 air rifle with a barrel under 305mm long as that is actually a sect 5, so that also meant any sub12 with a sub 305mm barrel that goes over 12 would not be classed as sect 1 but as sect 5...hence they get destroyed. However FX sold sub12 inch vermi's on FAC and I know of FAC super 10 K's also although the last one i heard about was re barrelled to 15inches to save it from the chop saw. I have a mate with a very nice Venom HW80 FAC, he has had it years....10 inch barrel, another one that was re barrelled to conform now clarification is to hand.
I think its more AMTA etc just deciding semi auto sub12 is a seriously grey area and not one the UK should be looking at, so best none are made here and none are imported for sale....thats how I see it and its fine with me that way. I do know of semi auto FX's in the UK however, all sub12.
If I want to shoot semi auto I do so in the USA when I visit....it gets the wanting out my system and I can live with single bolt feed for a few more years.
If someone can be bothered the info on barrel length and semi auto was in the firearms clarification thread from last year...its a monster thread so be prepared to go search for a while.
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Tony - I go to the AMTA meetings, mate, and as far as their firearms experts are concerned, there's no 'grey area'.
It really is that simple.
If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge
Registered User
£1500 for that ugly motherlover? No thanks!
may also be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocation dingle arm, to reduce sinusoidal repleneration
Really quite spectacularly hideous. Horrible piece of 'industrial' design, like a nail gun or a Kango drill. Very high mount for the scope so that will be a problem for 12 foot pound trajectories. Pooh!
aut pax aut bellum
This thread, and this post? http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....18#post5262218
S'cuse the question Mr. D but a gun is surely a gun, and rifling is rifling?
Otherwise a pistol would not be a gun, which by most considerations they are, are they not?? There might be talk of rifles and pistols - but no definition of these exists in the firearms act in relation to air weapons that are not especially dangerous - but a 'rifled gun' is a catch all term if we are to begin believe that it applies to air weapons.
I've read the Act and the associated amendments and can't see a specific definition of "rifled gun" other than what one would possibly understand from the above - so if the experts are so certain that air rifles are meeting the definition of a prohibited weapon I would be nice to know why they think air pistols are exempt esp. in the light of the guidance that has been always issued (and clarified in the BASC thread link above) by the CPS directly from the Home office that says that unless an airgun is specially dangerous it is exempt from Section 5;
"the Home Office regard self-loading or pump action rifled airguns (including paintball guns) as outside the scope of section 5, unless they are sufficiently powerful to fall within the category of a "specially dangerous" air weapon"
Taken from here - http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/
Given that the advice of both the home office (and following in it's wake the advice of the CPS) is only advice, and the Act is the Act, but an act only becomes meaningful with correct interpretation and precedent - otherwise we would all fall foul of 5(1)(b) "any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing" - 'other thing(s)' being terribly vague
The decision by the company concerned selling the aesthetically challenging semi auto is, to be fair, moving along the road of creating definitions and thus normalisation - definitions and norms not currently imposed upon us explicitly by the authorities, but definitions like at the start of that BASC thread that we are foisting on ourselves.
Creeping normalcy is something that I've always thought should worry us, from whatever quarter, when it is detrimental to the wider enjoyment of the sport - esp. as so many pump actions and semi autos exist and have been sold to us already that have already been mentioned, early skan owners, Drulov Eagles, original Beretta CX4's and the old Crosman 622 - possibly the early nightstalkers and the 1077's too but I'm not certain of those two.
Why with the existing Home office beliefs, CPS guidance, BASC clarifications and past precident set by what has been sold to us as a community already, is this question of defining different 'legal' normality now arising at all?
It flies in the face of all common sense to me, not only in it being contrary to everything preceding it, but also that if accept that we are going to be slinging lead down range from rifles at an energy level of 12 ftlb then wouldn't it be best to do that as accurately as possible (using a rifled barrel) rather than spraying it less accurately out of a smooth bored tube!?!
It makes no sense to me legally, rationally or most importantly practically
Registered User
I disagree (and honestly, not for the purpose of this thread). I shoot S/A .22lr and also use an eleven shot 12g. Whilst I've never found the need to empty all eleven shots at any kind of vermin with the shotgun, I regularly use more than four when decent flocks of pigeon come in, or when a fox hasn't gone down from the first shot and needs quick follow up shots. I regularly shoot groups of two and three rabbits with the .22lr, although that being said, I've also shot groups of the same number with a bolt action - but when I've been lucky. Same story when I've been ratting.
I can empty a ten round .22lr magazine in seconds, however trying to keep a level of accuracy is 'challenging' - and trying that on paper/inanimate targets, to me, is enjoyable. Thats where the attraction of these S/A air rifles comes in to play for me. I have to be extremely careful when plinking with my .22lr and set up a backstop to a 'paranoid level', in a certain area, on a certain permission of mine. I wouldn't have to go to anywhere near that level with a 12fpe rifle, shooting lightweight, lead pellets. It's impossible to get a decent level of accuracy at anything approaching mid-range with any of the Co2 offerings, so a semi auto that offers that level of accuracy and capability is surely a breakthrough.
So whilst I personally think the Evanix offering looks awful and I wouldn't dream of forking out £1,500 for one (that's about the price of five Ruger 10/22's), I do like the thought of that technology becoming mainstream. I can think of at least three new disciplines to be enjoyed and if certain people were somehow educated to the fact that semi auto doesn't mean an increase of things put in a game bag, I can't see one downside to them.
Cheers, Craig
Put on heading 270, assume attack formation
Registered User
Last time I looked there are a shed load of disciplines in Gallery Rifle where s/a .22rf rifles are used.
People who have been there focus on the fundamentals. People who sit at keyboards all day focus on the trivial and inane.
Administrator
And a Home Office working definition is the one that matters in this instance, MM.
I'm sure 'further clarification' could be obtained to satisfy a general understanding, but it's entirely possible that it would include 'other definitions' currently not considered to fall within the scope of Section 5.
Things work satisfactorily as they are and, again, that's what matters, really.
If you don't know enough to judge - don't judge
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