Hate to 'stir the semi auto nest' but...

[Terry D]

AMTA represent the Airgun Manufacturers. They therefore may defend the industry but not necessarily the sport.

Tell me, how can AMTA have an airgun industry at all, if there isn't a sport to sustain it?

What hurts the sport, hurts the industry. The more secure the sport, the more secure the industry that sport sustains.

AMTA will ALWAYS defend the sport of airgun shooting. It always has and that will never change.

[GaleForceEight]

I am in no way, shape or form one of AMTA'S political advisors. Not. A. Chance.

That job is incredibly specialised and demands intensive, in-depth knowledge, experience and specialist political smarts that very people have, and I'm definitely NOT one of those people.

I'm a spokesman, I'm in contact with thousands of airgun shooters, year in, year out, and I do all I can to promote and defend our sport, but navigating it through our political system is a job best left to genuine experts.

A man should know his limitations - and trust me, I know mine.

Political advisor is only one advisory role though, and somewhat divorced from policy. Let the experts determine how to navigate the desired policies through the political system, sure - but political and policy advice are not necessarily one and the same.

For example a policy advisor makes recommendations to an organisation which once adopted as a desire by that organisation (in this case the AMTA) the political advisors then will help the organisation to determine how the policy goals are steered through the political system towards the desired end. You have carefully stated that you are not a political advisor and steered the conversation away from the concept of policy. Are you saying to have no advisory input into AMTA at all or are you just trying to cloud the issue with smoke and mirrors?

[Terry D]

Are you saying to have no advisory input into AMTA at all or are you just trying to cloud the issue with smoke and mirrors?

I am saying that I have no advisory input into AMTA, beyond a single vote when it comes to voting on issues.

I haven't 'steered the conversation away' from anything and I'm not 'trying to cloud the issue with smoke and mirrors'. I've simply tried to make clear statements about the relevant topic.

Who on earth told you that I am an 'advisor' of any kind? It certainly didn't come from me.

[Minuteman]

Firearms law as it stands indicates that they are not in fact legal.

However they were not really considered when the legislation was drafted and the way the legistlative structure is in regards to the firearms act is not particularly practical in regards to accounting for innovation. BASC's stance would appear to be that the exemption from licencing due to sub 12ft/lb takes precedence over the secion 5 definitions.

I am guessing that Terry has positioned himself as one of AMTA's advisors (not beating about the bush here) and is therefore portraying his own view while trying to avoid saying as much on the forum; and much as I disagree with his stance on certain issues I believe his interpretation of the law as it currently stands is the correct one - HOWEVER, this does not mean that clarification of the law in regards to this issue should not be sought.

The AMTA seems happy to take a defensive position as they are not representing anyone other than themselves and do not wish to ask a question and risk the answer being 'no'. They took Neville Chamberlain's style of appeasement policy in regards to the anti-tamper in a gargantuan effort to demonstrate that the industry was capable of self regulation by means of protectionist policies at the expense of the end user.

BASC however is representing their members within the shooting community and are therefore far more proactive in pushing for clarification in support of their members wishes, which is a good thing so long as they don't overreach themselves to the point of being seen as a nuisance by the lawmakers - it's a question of fine balance, but I would see BASC's lawyers bricking themselves if one of their members had a sub 12ftlb true semi seized and was asking for assistance contesting it, as I don't see how any guideline or advice to CPOs can take precedence over established law no matter how illogical the construction of that law is!

Firearms law as it stands makes everything capable of firing anything a prohibited weapon - the line in my post earlier, and in the previous BASC thread referencing; "5(1)(b) "any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing" - 'other thing(s)' being terribly vague"

It is written deliberately vaguely to suit the purposes of the politicians and the home office, not enthusiasts and sportsmen. They can at a whim issue an edict and change much of the interpretation to whatever suits them best, on the back of a ticket of power given to them to 'protect' the public from themselves.

We have a number of things that point directly to their (semi-auto/pump's) current status;

We have a statement of guidance to the courts and thus the police by the CPS saying "The Home Office regard self-loading or pump action rifled airguns outside the scope of section 5, unless they are sufficiently powerful to fall within the category of a "specially dangerous"".

There has been a statement from the home office to our own representatives that specifically describes their instruction of chief police officers that semi-auto and pump sub 12 are not to be deemed illegal, and that the law will be changed to reflect this more clearly as soon as possible.

There has been no case brought against anyone ever in this regard, despite their previous availability to the public, legal sale and distribution from RFD's, of all the models previously mentioned.

Yet now we have the AMTA making statements that are the opposite of this...

There is a reason semi auto is not available in the UK, I know it, and others do also, however that has not stopped some semi auto rifles being sold/supplied, If they were totally illegal they would not have been supplied.

Im all for semi auto not being available, the reasons against it are valid and strong...i just do not like the smoke and mirrors we are seeing in this thread.

im done!

Perhaps this is the reason this 'advice' (contrary to the accepted official publicly available home office guidance) is being given and followed? That a decision has been made in our best interest, before there is a very public problem, to quietly criminalise a proportion of the community for the benefit of the rest? A vaccination by amputation.

I could understand such a decision, but I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, and would postulate that the potential for wider damage, greater than the threat thought to be being avoided, was all too probable.

The input, effect, and value of AMTA advisors is assessed regularly. I work closely with them and I believe they do a great job.

They seem to be hastening a point in time that would make me a criminal Mr. D (as I am an early Skan owner) so I think we'll have to agree to differ on that assessment.

Gimme a clue here - any idea how big a subject that could be?

New Zealand. Terrible thing, but once again the actions of a very small number of criminals has been used as an excuse for draconian legislation, limiting the freedoms of legitimate shooting enthusiasts, and offering not one more iota of safety to the general public. It appears to be the same the world over when it comes to firearms legislation - hence why I can understand the thinking behind carrying out radical surgery to avoid such a thing happening here.

I think what has been underestimated is the potential for the equivalent of a hospital acquired infection, especially as it appears there is an upside down knife being used, and a big chunk of what was hoped to be excised has been left behind in the form of that Evanix carbuncle, and the other carbuncles that will doubtless follow it. But then again I could be wrong and this whole thing will turn out to be something we'll all laugh about looking back.

[Terry D]

They seem to be hastening a point in time that would make me a criminal Mr. D (as I am an early Skan owner) so I think we'll have to agree to differ on that assessment.

They really aren't, MM.

Not in the real world, anyway - and I prefer to live in that one.

Do try it, you might enjoy it.

[Minuteman]

They really aren't, MM.

Not in the real world, anyway - and I prefer to live in that one.

Do try it, you might enjoy it.

I try and live in that one too Mr. D but I get the jitters when people start saying things that sound to me like they'll part me from my Skan

I'm off to gargle some medicine and will report on the colour of the sky later if I think it's changed back to it's normal psychedelic paisley pattern

[GaleForceEight]

I am saying that I have no advisory input into AMTA, beyond a single vote when it comes to voting on issues.

I haven't 'steered the conversation away' from anything and I'm not 'trying to cloud the issue with smoke and mirrors'. I've simply tried to make clear statements about the relevant topic.

Who on earth told you that I am an 'advisor' of any kind? It certainly didn't come from me.

What you are saying just doesn't make sense.

You have a vote within AMTA regarding their policy/descision making process despite not actually being a manufacturer, yet if you are not an advisor as you say, then you are saying that you do not discuss the topic that requires analysis and a vote with that other AMTA members before the vote is cast?

Of course you discuss things, and as you are not a manufacturer but your opinion/voice is heard by the manufacturers within a 'closed shop', surely that puts you in the role of advisor; not only that but one who also has a vote thrown in as well! If you were not an advisor (there to give advice or make recommendations based on whatever) then you wouldn't have been given that place at the table!!!

[Gunfun]

I have no problem with any type of loading action, its just a method of moving a pellet.

I would like a S/A rifled airgun as I'm left handed and this could enable better shooting groups at the range compared to using right handed bolt airguns which requires completely moving shooting position.

Also when using my HW100 (right hand side lever) from the off hand position & recocking I have to support the rifle by the pistol grip (my hand is near the trigger), a S/A would be safer.

I often wonder how many pellets are shot each year in this country, and the ratio of pellets reported used in horrible news stories, maybe 7 million to 1 ? I have no idea exactly but we are very responsible by statistics.

[Terry D]

What you are saying just doesn't make sense.

You have a vote within AMTA regarding their policy/descision making process despite not actually being a manufacturer, yet if you are not an advisor as you say, then you are saying that you do not discuss the topic that requires analysis and a vote with that other AMTA members before the vote is cast?

Of course you discuss things, and as you are not a manufacturer but your opinion/voice is heard by the manufacturers within a 'closed shop', surely that puts you in the role of advisor; not only that but one who also has a vote thrown in as well! If you were not an advisor (there to give advice or make recommendations based on whatever) then you wouldn't have been given that place at the table!!!

How very silly, and entirely incorrect.

It's the 'Airgun Manufacturers and Traders Association. I represent Archant, which owns Airgun World and Air Gunner magazines, and is therefore a 'trader' within the airgun industry. Countryman Fairs, who put on the Midland Game Fair, Kelmarsh and other events, also has a representative at the AMTA table, as do other companies who don't actually manufacture airguns but are part of the airgun trade.

Like them, I sit around the table to listen to, and consider, advice and expert input from specialist advisors. I am not an advisor of any kind. If the fact that I have a vote makes me an advisor, then all AMTA members are advisors, which is clearly nonsense.

I trust that makes things clear.

[BALD ERIC]

So for us who are hard of learning IS IT LEGAL

[Snooper601]

So for us who are hard of learning IS IT LEGAL

The airgun trade say no.

BASC say yes

You take your choice. ..


Cheers

John

[Minuteman]

The airgun trade say no.

BASC say yes

You take your choice. ..


Cheers

John

Not forgetting the CPS saying yes.

The home office saying yes.

ACPO say yes & all chief police offers have been told to say yes.

Just the AMTA saying some are, some aren't.

Or rather their advisors are, and the AMTA are following their advice...

Does make a man wonder that's for sure.

[oldcurmudgeon]

So whats the position of the Crossman 600.
Legal to own or not?

[CORKY.]

Do explain how AMTA are 'part of the problem', Corky.

Thanks.

This forum," Rules and Guidance"....... Makes it quite clear that I would be banned, if I were to mention part of the problem, let alone express an opinion . I prefer... you nearly caught me!

[Terry D]

This forum," Rules and Guidance"....... Makes it quite clear that I would be banned, if I were to mention part of the problem, let alone express an opinion . I prefer... you nearly caught me!

You mean anti-tamper?

I tell you what, PM me a contact number and we'll have a proper conversation about it. You'll learn much, I promise.

Over to you.