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Thread: Hate to 'stir the semi auto nest' but...

  1. #811
    evenbad Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by smudger1234 View Post
    What you seem to keep neglecting is the fact that the GTA is not the "British manufacturers GTA"...
    In fact only a very very small amount of its members are British manufacturers. Most are shops and importers who (if legally allowed) would love to be able to sell another product to the consumer. The GTA acts as a whole industry organisation; not a British manufacturers organisation.
    Sorry I got this wrong I automatically thought it was for membership of British Gun makers to protect their industry in our Country. not neglect as you stated.

  2. #812
    secretagentmole Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohannon View Post
    Are paintball guns "rifled guns" as the act is amended?

    No, they are smoothbores. In the same way as shotguns are smoothbores and not caught up but that section of the act.

    I suspect you're not reading the legislation properly and have failed to note the amendments made by the various acts and statutory instruments subsequent to the 1968 act.
    That is taken from the 2014 CPS guidelines sire, so I am reading it right. If it is sub 12 it can be smooth bore, it can be rifled and it can be semi automatic too!
    Let us read it together.

    Paintball guns are a type of air weapon. The Home Office regard self-loading or pump action rifled airguns (including paintball guns) as outside the scope of the Firearms Act (Now this bit states air rifles, with rifled barrels, self loading ie semi auto or pump action are outside the scope of the Firearms Act quite categorically), unless they are sufficiently powerful to fall within the category of a "specially dangerous" air weapon (that means it has to be sub 12, Specially Dangerous is any air rifle over 12 ft lb or any air pistol over 6 ft lb)(Archbold 24.8a). Paintball guns could be considered imitation firearms.

    Now this is taken from the latest CPS guidelines and this is from before other guns are discussed! Have a link http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/index.html

    Now it is stated that sub 12 semi auto rifles are outside the scope of the legislation, the legislation does not apply! Quite simple, we tell you that they are outside of the legislation, so you don't need to worry when we tell you what guns are covered by the legislation later on. It is a step by step reading. If you read something that says it does not apply it is exempted. Quite simple. So whatever anybody says the sub 12 rifled semi auto is legal, as it is considered outside the scope of the Firearms act, so whatever is written in the act does not apply.

  3. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punchsteve View Post
    ... to perpetuate asinine conspiracy theories about the trade whose fate is directly tied in with that of the perpetuation of the sport.
    I've no axes to grind. "Directly tied in" implies that the interests of shooters and those of the trade are the same. However, the reality is that whilst broadly aligned there are times when the interests of one group conflict with those of the other and this is one of those times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohannon View Post
    Section five of the act defines "Weapons subject to general prohibition.", of which any semi auto that is a .22 rimfire is prohibited, as I pointed out before this why 17 hmr semi autos are prohibited...


    I'm not sure I follow the argument.
    Without rehashing the first 600 posts of this thread... you are taking the term "rifled gun" to include air weapons. Throughout the legislation "airguns" are variously referred to, or included within, "air weapons, air rifles, air pistols, firearms" etc and these terms are defined.
    "Rifled gun" is not specifically defined within the legislation, the legal opinion I've been party to suggests that it does not include "air weapons".

  4. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by evenbad View Post
    Sorry I got this wrong I automatically thought it was for membership of British Gun makers to protect their industry in our Country. not neglect as you stated.
    Where did I state "neglect"... I said no such thing.

    What i said is that the represent the gun trade as a whole..... Not just the British airgun manufacturers....

  5. #815
    Randy Bohannon's Avatar
    Randy Bohannon is offline “Junes1 is a whining bellend”
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    Quote Originally Posted by secretagentmole View Post
    That is taken from the 2014 CPS guidelines sire, so I am reading it right. If it is sub 12 it can be smooth bore, it can be rifled and it can be semi automatic too!
    Let us read it together.

    Paintball guns are a type of air weapon. The Home Office regard self-loading or pump action rifled airguns (including paintball guns) as outside the scope of the Firearms Act (Now this bit states air rifles, with rifled barrels, self loading ie semi auto or pump action are outside the scope of the Firearms Act quite categorically), unless they are sufficiently powerful to fall within the category of a "specially dangerous" air weapon (that means it has to be sub 12, Specially Dangerous is any air rifle over 12 ft lb or any air pistol over 6 ft lb)(Archbold 24.8a). Paintball guns could be considered imitation firearms.

    Now this is taken from the latest CPS guidelines and this is from before other guns are discussed! Have a link http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/index.html

    Now it is stated that sub 12 semi auto rifles are outside the scope of the legislation, the legislation does not apply! Quite simple, we tell you that they are outside of the legislation, so you don't need to worry when we tell you what guns are covered by the legislation later on. It is a step by step reading. If you read something that says it does not apply it is exempted. Quite simple. So whatever anybody says the sub 12 rifled semi auto is legal, as it is considered outside the scope of the Firearms act, so whatever is written in the act does not apply.
    The issue is that you don't understand how the law works or how to read it.

    Of course the intention of the act is not to ban paintball guns, the idea wasn't to ban 17 hmr semi autos either, the point is that the act as amended does so.

    The CPS guidelines are are guidlines on when to prosecute, not what is legal or illegal; that is what statue is for.

    What the CPS is saying is that they will not prosecute for the mere possession of a semi automatic unless they are "specially dangerous".

    If the law was not worded in a fsahion where clearly, to a proper reading, any semi automatic rifled gun that is not a .22 is illegal, the CPS would not have needed to issue such a policy.

    Do you understand that the reason the CPS are compelled to make that statement is because by the letter of the law a SA air rifle is illegal or not?
    "An infinite number of monkeys banging away at type writers for an infinite period of time will eventually reproduce Hamlet" Thanks to discussion forums we now know this to be untrue.

  6. #816
    Randy Bohannon's Avatar
    Randy Bohannon is offline “Junes1 is a whining bellend”
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18 Wheeler View Post

    Without rehashing the first 600 posts of this thread... you are taking the term "rifled gun" to include air weapons. Throughout the legislation "airguns" are variously referred to, or included within, "air weapons, air rifles, air pistols, firearms" etc and these terms are defined.
    "Rifled gun" is not specifically defined within the legislation, the legal opinion I've been party to suggests that it does not include "air weapons".
    Rifled gun is not defined in the legislation because of the guiding principle in British legislative interpretation that words are taken at their ordinary and simplest meaning.

    http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Literal-rule.php

    After that we go to the golden rule:

    http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Golden-rule.php


    And finally to the mischief rule:

    http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Mischief-rule.php


    the mischief rule is the reason the CPS say they will not prosecute, clearly the law was not meant to catch up semi auto air rifles when you can have semi auto .22RF.

    The point that people are missing here is that this bit of law needs clarification and amendment as clearly, the mischief that the act is meant to prevent (The ownership of semi-automatic fullbore rifles and pistols) does not apply.

    Therefore what are the people harranging the GTA and Terry trying to achieve here, I am baffled?
    "An infinite number of monkeys banging away at type writers for an infinite period of time will eventually reproduce Hamlet" Thanks to discussion forums we now know this to be untrue.

  7. #817
    evenbad Guest
    And incidentally, I made no statement that someone has an axe to grind, I merely stated one could be forgiven for thinking so.
    Steve , Steve Steve , your remark or quip call it what you like is not going to draw me or anyone else into a smiley war, then this thread will either be closed or result in admins enforcing a ban and thus a voice is muted or lost. Please try and rise above it voice your opinions on the topic its not hard and lets all participate in a grown up manner which would be nice for all concerned! there not one smiley attached.

  8. #818
    Jackel's Avatar
    Jackel is offline Welding guru and moderator to the stars
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    Quote Originally Posted by evenbad View Post
    And incidentally, I made no statement that someone has an axe to grind, I merely stated one could be forgiven for thinking so.
    Steve , Steve Steve , your remark or quip call it what you like is not going to draw me or anyone else into a smiley war, then this thread will either be closed or result in admins enforcing a ban and thus a voice is muted or lost. Please try and rise above it voice your opinions on the topic its not hard and lets all participate in a grown up manner which would be nice for all concerned! there not one smiley attached.

    You do realise Punchsteve is a moderator /part of the admin team here don't you
    The impossible I do immediately, miracles take 24 hours..



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  9. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by evenbad View Post
    Sorry I got this wrong I automatically thought it was for membership of British Gun makers to protect their industry in our Country. not neglect as you stated.
    To hopefully end your theory that the GTA is protecting the British manufacturers:

    http://www.guntradenews.com/interviews/kings-of-spain/

    The chairman of the GTA is also the owner of ASI, who are importers of FX.....
    Hmmmm... If only FX made a range of semi-auto air rifles that could be sold in the UK whereby the chairman of the GTA would benefit
    Last edited by smudger1234; 19-05-2015 at 07:38 PM.

  10. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by secretagentmole View Post
    Please, when you are trying to quote the law, can you please use the correct terminology?

    The terms are "Specially Dangerous" or "Especially Dangerous".

    Any gun is suitably dangerous in the right circumstances!
    Semantics then. At least I am not trying to combine the Firearms Act, Dangerous Air Weapons and CPS guidance to justify foolish behaviour. How many people have pointed out the .22 rimfire bit of the SA allowable weapons and given you the relevant info obtained by the GTA and you still think you are right.
    You can spend thousands and still miss a barn door or spend just enough and enjoy yourself. If you haven't got the talent to start with a million pound won't fix it. Whippet, Russell, a few bang sticks and a flat cap. http://www.smart-tech1st.co.uk

  11. #821
    secretagentmole Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Bohannon View Post
    The issue is that you don't understand how the law works or how to read it.

    Of course the intention of the act is not to ban paintball guns, the idea wasn't to ban 17 hmr semi autos either, the point is that the act as amended does so.

    The CPS guidelines are are guidlines on when to prosecute, not what is legal or illegal; that is what statue is for.

    What the CPS is saying is that they will not prosecute for the mere possession of a semi automatic unless they are "specially dangerous".

    If the law was not worded in a fsahion where clearly, to a proper reading, any semi automatic rifled gun that is not a .22 is illegal, the CPS would not have needed to issue such a policy.

    Do you understand that the reason the CPS are compelled to make that statement is because by the letter of the law a SA air rifle is illegal or not?
    I understand, but what you repeatedly fail to comprehend is the fact that semi automatic rifled barrel sub 12 air rifles are not affected by the Firearms Act. They are given exemption. As in not affected, exempt, immune, they are not covered by the act unless they are over 12 ft lb in which case they are banned. Quite simple to comprehend!

  12. #822
    secretagentmole Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Edge View Post
    Semantics then. At least I am not trying to combine the Firearms Act, Dangerous Air Weapons and CPS guidance to justify foolish behaviour. How many people have pointed out the .22 rimfire bit of the SA allowable weapons and given you the relevant info obtained by the GTA and you still think you are right.
    Not semantics, you have to use the correct terminology. There is a whole heap of difference between fully and semi automatic. There is a whole load of difference between Suitably Dangerous which is not covered by the guidelines or law and Specially Dangerous or Especially Dangerous which is.

    I have repeatedly pointed out where it states that sub 12 semi automatic air rifles are not covered by the Firearms Act. Now you have to read law step by step (done law at university by the way), it states quite categorically they are exempt, not covered they are outside the Firearms Act. What part of that is so hard to understand. BASC say that this is the case and this is one of the few times I actually find myself agreeing with BASC (for crying out loud buy a lottery ticket man - the impossible just happened).

    Now I am in agreement with the finest legal minds at BASC, the CPS and Home Office. Ever thought you may not be right?

    The important bit is in the guidelines, before what it says is illegal, the statement that Air Rifles, whether pump action or semi automatic, are exempt from what follows. It does not matter what follows, whether .17hmr is banned, if 22 centre fire semi autos are banned, if .303 deer hunting semi autos powder burners are banned, the sub 12 air rifle has already been exempted.

    Think of it as a free meal voucher for a restaurant. If you are given a voucher for an 8 ounce steak and chips free but you want a 10 ounce steak, then the bill applies. If you only want an 8 ounce, the bill does not. Can you understand that logic?

    Because it is sub 12 ft lb, the Firearms Act 1968 does not apply! That is all you need to know. Does not matter what else is discussed in the act, you have the free steak voucher!
    Last edited by secretagentmole; 19-05-2015 at 07:48 PM.

  13. #823
    evenbad Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackel View Post
    You do realise Punchsteve is a moderator /part of the admin team here don't you
    Nope didn't realise it at all and if that is the case he should know better and set an example not make one ! Being part of the admin team doesn't mean he has to act superior and again my opinion try to goad or inflame a situation which seems like a bullying tactic to cause someone to react in such a way to have them removed either from this thread or forum.
    Incidentally is Robedge part of the team as I have been warned by you Carefull! yet no such warning for his remark which he posted ! in my part of Wales quote SOMEONES GOING TO GET THEIR LIGHT SWITCHED OFF seems to incite a physical assault but maybe where he is from may mean something different.
    See you now have got me going off topic which is something I don't want to participate in it a joke just my SOH ignore me.

  14. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by secretagentmole View Post
    Not semantics, you have to use the correct terminology. There is a whole heap of difference between fully and semi automatic. There is a whole load of difference between Suitably Dangerous which is not covered by the guidelines or law and Specially Dangerous or Especially Dangerous which is.

    I have repeatedly pointed out where it states that sub 12 semi automatic air rifles are not covered by the Firearms Act. Now you have to read law step by step (done law at university by the way), it states quite categorically they are exempt, not covered they are outside the Firearms Act. What part of that is so hard to understand. BASC say that this is the case and this is one of the few times I actually find myself agreeing with BASC (for crying out loud buy a lottery ticket man - the impossible just happened).

    Now I am in agreement with the finest legal minds at BASC, the CPS and Home Office. Ever thought you may not be right?
    The CPS offer guidance, The Firearms Act is law. Until the act is amended to include .22 rimfire and SA air rifle be it suitably dangerous or not your argument is irrelevant.
    You can spend thousands and still miss a barn door or spend just enough and enjoy yourself. If you haven't got the talent to start with a million pound won't fix it. Whippet, Russell, a few bang sticks and a flat cap. http://www.smart-tech1st.co.uk

  15. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by evenbad View Post
    SOMEONES GOING TO GET THEIR LIGHT SWITCHED OFF.

    I can clear that up..... In Golbourne it usually means someone forgot to get the meter card topped up.

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