Vesuvit LC

[Turnup]

Just got a some Explosia Vesuvit LC Black Powder. A kind gentleman at my club drove all the way to Market Rasin in order to collect a bulk order at a very good price (£20.40 per kilo but you have to buy in multiples of 16kg), and at that price it was just too good to pass up. He came back with 32kg of it in his car . Apparently you can lawfully transport up to 50kg on an ordinary explosives licence + RCA, which came as a surprise to me.

He claims that it is more or less like TS2.

Anyone using it?

What load for a .44 pistol?

[tacfoley]

What load for a .44 pistol?

Pistol or revolver? Ball or bullet? Smooth-bore or rifled?

They DO have a different levels of chargement.

tac

[Turnup]

Pistol or revolver? Ball or bullet? Smooth-bore or rifled?

They DO have a different levels of chargement.

tac

Revolver, rifled, ball (swaged, soft).

But in fact quite interested to hear about all experiences with this powder, which is why I was not specific.

[tacfoley]

Revolver, rifled, ball (swaged, soft).

But in fact quite interested to hear about all experiences with this powder, which is why I was not specific.

Sorry, can't help you at all, since I've never heard of it. That, of course, means diddly, since there will undoubtedly be folks here who know all about it.

However - average loads for a replica .44cal BP revolver in good condition range from around 20 - 40gr of average quality 3Fg, depending on how much commotion you are after at either end of it. Swiss BP, being of a far higher quality than the stuff that we otherwise get, gets loaded with around 10% less load than TS2, maybe even 20%, since, IMO, TS2 is on a par with shooting chicken droppings by comparison. GOEX is good, too, if you can ever get it in this country. Most BP shooters in North America, me included, shoot the various grades of that brand with great success.

Replica single shot target/duelling pistols of the LePage/Moore/Mortimer/Kuchenreuter/Mang in Graz variety like between 15 - 25gr or so - patched ball is the norm there. Flintlock or percussion is immaterial.

Smooth-bore pistols need around 25gr up to 40gr for this rather small-bore of .44cal. Patched, too.

Your initial question about loads leads me to suspect that you are new to shooting BP handguns, and if this be the case, then this is undoubtedly THE place in UK to get wised up on the subject. Many folks here have been shooting since BP was all there was to shoot. So I'm told.

So ask away.

tac

[Turnup]

Sorry, can't help you at all, since I've never heard of it. That, of course, means diddly, since there will undoubtedly be folks here who know all about it.

However - average loads for a replica .44cal BP revolver in good condition range from around 20 - 40gr of average quality 3Fg, depending on how much commotion you are after at either end of it. Swiss BP, being of a far higher quality than the stuff that we otherwise get, gets loaded with around 10% less load than TS2, maybe even 20%, since, IMO, TS2 is on a par with shooting chicken droppings by comparison. GOEX is good, too, if you can ever get it in this country. Most BP shooters in North America, me included, shoot the various grades of that brand with great success.

Replica single shot target/duelling pistols of the LePage/Moore/Mortimer/Kuchenreuter/Mang in Graz variety like between 15 - 25gr or so - patched ball is the norm there. Flintlock or percussion is immaterial.

Smooth-bore pistols need around 25gr up to 40gr for this rather small-bore of .44cal. Patched, too.

Your initial question about loads leads me to suspect that you are new to shooting BP handguns, and if this be the case, then this is undoubtedly THE place in UK to get wised up on the subject. Many folks here have been shooting since BP was all there was to shoot. So I'm told.

So ask away.

tac

Tac,

Not new to BP. I shoot with several international level muzzle loaders (but do not compete with them!) and have benefitted from their advice over many years, but they have not tried Vesuvit before either. I suspect it is relatively new to the UK.

I have tried home-made (really just to prove that it could be done relatively easily - it went bang but that's about all I could can say in its favour),

FO Triangle, only a little better than my home-made.

TS2, much better but not as good as:

Goex fff - faster. (I have precious little of that left in a stash purchased from the US international Team at Wedgnock many years ago - rumour was that the USAF brought in a pallet load of it for them - far too much of course so they sold off the surplus at the end of the meet),

Swiss No2, IMO faster than Goex but there is not a lot in it.

TS2 and No2 are both becoming expensive, Goex is as you say rocking horse droppings here in the UK. Black Silver is, alas, no longer available.

but never Vesuvit.


So in the search for a good and affordable powder, I am asking specifically about Vesuvit LC, which appears to be relatively new on the scene here in the UK, although I do wonder what actual powder Kranks and Fultons are selling as own brand, since there are only so many manufacturers on the planet, and the packaging looks very similar.

[tacfoley]

Since you have it already, and nobody else has, and you are an expert BP shooter with many years of international shooting, I suggest that you ignore my post, and try the stuff out for yourself on an empirical basis, since whatever else it is, it is still only whatever grade of back powder it is, and then let the rest of us know your findings.

A quick search in the internet reveals that LC grade is equivalent 3Fg. My recommended loads, from the 30th edition BP handbook and almost fifty years of BP shooting, albeit without the benefit of international level shooting buddies, were based on the loads of a similar grade of powder.

Over to you.

tac

[Turnup]

Since you have it already, and nobody else has, and you are an expert BP shooter with many years of international shooting, I suggest that you ignore my post, and try the stuff out for yourself on an empirical basis, since whatever else it is, it is still only whatever grade of back powder it is, and then let the rest of us know your findings.

A quick search in the internet reveals that LC grade is equivalent 3Fg. My recommended loads, from the 30th edition BP handbook and almost fifty years of BP shooting, albeit without the benefit of international level shooting buddies, were based on the loads of a similar grade of powder.

Over to you.

tac

I know full well that you are not a native English speaker, but I also know that you are certainly competent to understand what I am writing, so, is this a deliberate troll?


I thought that the title and original post was clear as to what I was asking - advice from people with experience of Vesuvit LC.

You asked for further detail regarding my intended purpose, and at last inform us that you know nothing about the very powder I was asking about. Well thanks!

I politely attempt to refine your understanding of where I am coming from, and you go all sarcastic about my "many years of international shooting" - something which I did not claim.

You must surely know that fff tells us only the approximate granulation size and very little about its deflagration characteristics - you also know that fff powders are most certainly not the same so loads for other powders are not much help.

I fully intend to experiment with it (along with several others at my club) but was hoping for a clue as to starting point from someone who knows this particular powder.


Anyone out there use it?

[tacfoley]

I know full well that you are not a native English speaker, but I also know that you are certainly competent to understand what I am writing, so, is this a deliberate troll?


I thought that the title and original post was clear as to what I was asking - advice from people with experience of Vesuvit LC.

You asked for further detail regarding my intended purpose, and at last inform us that you know nothing about the very powder I was asking about. Well thanks!

I politely attempt to refine your understanding of where I am coming from, and you go all sarcastic about my "many years of international shooting" - something which I did not claim.

You must surely know that fff tells us only the approximate granulation size and very little about its deflagration characteristics - you also know that fff powders are most certainly not the same so loads for other powders are not much help.

I fully intend to experiment with it (along with several others at my club) but was hoping for a clue as to starting point from someone who knows this particular powder.

Anyone out there use it?

Lighten up, eh?

Sarcasm was not my intention, but humour was, since I'm a simple and happy-go-lucky kind of soul, as anyone here who knows me would advise you. I CAN certainly 'do' sarcasm, and if and when necessary you would be left in no doubt whatsoever that it had been employed.

However, let's move away from your unhappiness at my post for a moment, and discuss mine.

Since it only took me a couple of minutes to discover that this stuff is actually not a totally newly-discovered propellant that works by a different methodology, but actually good old-fashioned black powder and the equivalent of 3Fg black powder, it seemed reasonable that it therefore behaves like any other 3Fg black powder.

Quote - 'The black powders of VESUVIT® trademarks are manufactured by classical technology. The long experience in production, charcoal chosen from special kinds of wood and extremely high level of accuracy during production ensures the best quality of black powders VESUVIT®.

My suggestion for you to try it out was also made in good faith, and to be accused of being a troll is risable in the extreme! Incidentally, the manufacturer's site gives detailed tables of the conflagration rates as well as burn temperatures and all manner of other cogent scientific detail. Check it out - http://www.explosia.cz/en/trhaviny/cerne.htm.

However, you had already said that it's new to the UK, so quite how you expect to get loading information about it from any of us is a question that simply cannot be answered - hence my suggestion for you, with your many years experience in BP shooting, to try it out and tell us about it.

I earnestly suggest that you closely examine my almost 3000-post present history on this site - and some 4500 posts at a previous time - before accusing me of being a troll, regardless of whether or not my use of English meets your standards of use.

Anyhow, I'd guess by now that we both agree that I've wasted enough of my valuable time, and possibly yours too, with this post, so I'll let you get on with it.


tac

[tim56]

Been using it for a while now. Have found it as clean as swiss but not quite as pokey. Im using 15 grns in my .44 LePage and
22 grns in my Rodgers and both my Rugers compared to 20 grns of TS2. The .577 Musky takes around 70 grns a shot which
soon depletes my stocks of powder. I think we payed £18 a kilo plus petrol money of £2 a kilo to the chap that fetched it and
of course everyone stocked up. Its amazing how much you can get through in a days shooting.
ps, we got ours in a big bag and divided it up ourselves. It didn't come already weighed and put in pots. Tim

[Turnup]

Been using it for a while now. Have found it as clean as swiss but not quite as pokey. Im using 15 grns in my .44 LePage and
22 grns in my Rodgers and both my Rugers compared to 20 grns of TS2. The .577 Musky takes around 70 grns a shot which
soon depletes my stocks of powder. I think we payed £18 a kilo plus petrol money of £2 a kilo to the chap that fetched it and
of course everyone stocked up. Its amazing how much you can get through in a days shooting.
ps, we got ours in a big bag and divided it up ourselves. It didn't come already weighed and put in pots. Tim

Thanks for the info Tim. Yes, we had the option to purchase in bulk packaging but did not fancy dividing it up, bearing in mind that it would have to be done on the day of purchase as none of us have access to a licenced bulk store. I guess a bit softer than TS2 is not a great surprise, considering the price, but it is still a much cheaper option. Looking forward to trying it out.

See Tac, there are people out there who have used it.

[jennings]

Here's a link to comments about it on the MLAGB.

http://www.mlagb.com/cgi-bin/forum/Y...num=1335870853

For the price it looks as if it worth buying and trying some loads.
Any idea who might stock it in the South East.

[Turnup]

Here's a link to comments about it on the MLAGB.

http://www.mlagb.com/cgi-bin/forum/Y...num=1335870853

For the price it looks as if it worth buying and trying some loads.
Any idea who might stock it in the South East.

Interesting reading - looks like largely favourable reviews on there. It was the price which attracted us to it as well.

I know of no stockists - ours was bought from the importer and they do only 16 x 1kg boxes, or bulk. The importer might be willing to tell you if they know of any retailers selling under the Vesuvit brand.

I suspect that it might be the same as the own brand products sold by Kranks and Fultons, and the generic fff from Peter Starley, since these seem to have appeared at about the same time and are priced about right for their mark up. Fultons were vague when I asked them what actual powder theirs was. I would expect that the importer would decline to comment regarding retailers who re-brand it.

[tacfoley]

Thanks for the info Tim. Yes, we had the option to purchase in bulk packaging but did not fancy dividing it up, bearing in mind that it would have to be done on the day of purchase as none of us have access to a licenced bulk store. I guess a bit softer than TS2 is not a great surprise, considering the price, but it is still a much cheaper option. Looking forward to trying it out.

See Tac, there are people out there who have used it.

So there are.

Snide remarks not appreciated, 'kay?

Enjoy.

tac

[jennings]

Would it be possible, that following this thread , we could compile a list of suppliers of B/P.their location and what make of B/P they sell.
I use Fultons for FO triangle and Pantiles Vintage Guns ,Tunbridge Wells for Swiss no2.
There must be other stockists in the South East but so far haven't located them.

[Graysmoke]

I think thats a great idea, it will save the confusion around who supplies BP and could save some cash on going to get it somewhere closer...

Does John Forsey at welling stock BP?

I asked at Wilson & Wilson in Ramsgate but to my surprise they dont stock BP...

- Tom