An unusual Webley Mark I

[Leonardj]

This rather unusual Webley Mark I came my way not too long ago. My research has proved it to be something of an anomaly, and I am hoping that some of the other vintage Webley enthusiasts may be of assistance in nailing down exactly what it is I have here.

All of the frame markings seem to point to it being a 2nd series gun, with the exception that it has the trigger adjusting screw present, suggesting it to be a 3rd series gun.
Perhaps a 2nd to 3rd series (early) transitional gun might be the best description?

The markings on the LHS are as follows:
Front of air chamber - "Webley Air Pistol Mark I".
Rear of air chamber - "Webley & Scott Ltd Birmingham & London".
Above the grip panel, the serial number - "10010"
And on the breech block - "British Pattent N. 219872" and "Foreign Patents Pending".

The markings on the RHS are as follows:
Rear of air chamber - "Made in England".
And on the breech block - "U.S.A. Patents Pending".

I'd be most interested in the thoughts of other Webley collectors regarding this unusual Mark I.

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/u.../OddMkI-01.jpg

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/u.../OddMkI-02.jpg

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/u.../OddMkI-03.jpg

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/u.../OddMkI-04.jpg

[Josie & John]

Hi Len,

You certainly know how to find them. The presence of the trigger adjusting screw with parallel sided head and no locking screw sounds correct for a pistol in this serial number range. A Mark II Target model was pictured in Guns Review by Mark Newcomer in June 1978 with a serial number of 10105 and it too had the same trigger adjustment as well as the breech block located British Patent details. The reference to U.S. Patents pending is interesting. I wonder if this pistol was a very U.S. Import by Hoffman Arms Company? This company demonstrated a Webley Mark I at Camp Perry in 1924 and a review in the NRA's magazine followed in 1925.

Thanks for sharing this interesting pistol with the rest of us Len.

Kind regards,

John

[Leonardj]

Hi John,
Thank you for that info.
When you say "correct for a pistol in this serial number range", would that imply for a 3rd series Mark I?

I had one e-mail response that described this Mark I as a "very late 2nd series", and suggesting that "the addition of the trigger adjust screw did not immediately define it as a 3rd series gun". He went on to state that "the serial numbers for the 3rd series guns began at a significantly higher range than the serial number of this gun", but sadly, he did not quote me an actual range of numbers. I am not aware of any documentation that breaks the Mark I variants down by serial number range - I only have the info that breaks them down by engineering changes.

Can anyone here either confirm or refute the above info?

Is there any known breakdown of the Mark I variants by serial number ranges?

[Josie & John]

Hi Len,

The difficulty is Webley never classified Mark I pistols into any kind of Series - all this was done by collectors years after the event and not all necessarily agree over what classifies one 'unofficial series' from another as you have found out. For example, do we call the change to a larger grip frame a change from 2nd to 3rd series or does the presence of full international patents herald a new series? Perhaps the introduction of a trigger adjusting screw should define a series? There are plenty of variations of the Mark I to find and perhaps a definitive guide to this pistol ought to be produced - the difficulty being getting all collectors to buy into whatever classifications are proposed.

As to your fine pistol, I believe the trigger adjustment came in just before 10,000 pistols had been produced and as I said in my earlier reply, I know of a Mark II with a number close to your Mark I with similar features. Not sure if I have the courage to argue it is a late 2nd or early 3rd series pistol though! Perhaps I should not have used the word 'series' in my earlier reply.

Not sure if I have helped as I think I'm asking the same questions you are

Best regards,

John

[Leonardj]

Hi John,
Thanks for your further thoughts on the subject.

It is reassuring to know that I am not alone in being a bit unclear on the criteria that defines the various series of these great old air pistols.

So, a 2nd to 3rd series transitional gun it is.

[Josie & John]

Hi Len,

I think there is a danger in trying to classify the Mark I into any kind of series as there are so many variations. Dennis Hiller called the single spring clip the first model and the double spring clip pistol the second model, whilst Gordon Bruce referred to both spring clip variants as the first series, so there is confusion over which series is which.

I wonder whether it is more beneficial naming the different variants rather than numbering them?

The Spring Clip Model, the Patent Model (for those pistols with just the British patent stamped on it with international patents pending), The Fillister Trigger Adjustable Model, The Etched Model, The Cone Head Trigger Adjustable Model, The Twin Bung Model (strips from either end), etc. There will be variations within each model type and by using a name, this may cause less confusion than trying to explain you had an 8th series variant and someone arguing there were only seven series!

Needless to say the above names are given as examples and I am sure others can come up with more eloquent designations.

What do you and others think? Is it worth attempting to classify the Mark I in this way?

Kind regards,

John

[Troubledshooter]

Rather than have multiple 'Series/patterns' of the wood grip Mk.I, I would have thought three basic series would suffice, with variants listed within each series, eg: 1st series with single and twin clip variants, 2nd. series, with thin grips and whatever other variants may be applicable, and finally 3rd. series with thick grips and other multiple variants listed, such as Etched variant, double strip variant, etc.
These many variants on the third series could indeed be designated as a series in their own right, but it just gets confusing after a while.
I was told by an old collector many years ago there were 22 known variants of the wood grip Mk.I. I've never bothered to find out if it's fact or not, but there's an interesting exercise for a Webley enthusiast with time to spare.
It's rather like the situation with the Service Mk.II rifle, wher a fourth series has been mentioned. I'm of the old school who believes there are only three series of the Service rifle, with several variants of the third series.

[Leonardj]

Hi Len,

I think there is a danger in trying to classify the Mark I into any kind of series as there are so many variations. Dennis Hiller called the single spring clip the first model and the double spring clip pistol the second model, whilst Gordon Bruce referred to both spring clip variants as the first series, so there is confusion over which series is which.

I wonder whether it is more beneficial naming the different variants rather than numbering them?

The Spring Clip Model, the Patent Model (for those pistols with just the British patent stamped on it with international patents pending), The Fillister Trigger Adjustable Model, The Etched Model, The Cone Head Trigger Adjustable Model, The Twin Bung Model (strips from either end), etc. There will be variations within each model type and by using a name, this may cause less confusion than trying to explain you had an 8th series variant and someone arguing there were only seven series!

Needless to say the above names are given as examples and I am sure others can come up with more eloquent designations.

What do you and others think? Is it worth attempting to classify the Mark I in this way?

Kind regards,

John

Hi John,
I think that it would be a great idea to establish a more definitive breakdown of the many variants of the Mark I.
It would obviously have to be undertaken, or at least overseen, by collectors that have extensive familiarity with the many variants, through first hand examination, and careful research.
Certainly not a small task.

In the meantime, folks like me have to defer to the currently published classifications, based on the research of those who obviously have greater access to, and familiarity, with these many variants than many of us could ever hope to have, due simply to our own lack of exposure to them.

[Garvin]

FWIW I think David's 'keep it simple' approach has the most clarity, with three series and each variation described by it's name rather than with a sub-section number (such as e.g. series 2, type 3). In my limited experience, no sooner than you have consolidated a definitive list of variations, than another pops up!

[Josie & John]

There's certainly some food for thought there. I agree any classification should be as simple as possible but this will always be difficult with the Mark I in view of the multiple variations of the classic straight grip pistol. If we agree to a principle of three 'Series' with variants within each type, what about:-

1st Series: Spring clip models

2nd Series: Breech Block marked models (incorporating the post spring clip slim frame models and in fact all pistols until international patents were stamped either side of the air cylinder)

3rd Series: International Model (incorporating all pistols with full international patents stamped either side of the air cylinder + etched models)

Ultimately if a further model for classification is produced, collector buy in to the system would need to be fairly universal to make the project worthwhile. Otherwise there is the danger of making a complex subject even more complicated.

Len,
Don't do yourself a disservice. You have sourced some very fine examples, which are significant historically as well as being in very fine order.

Kind regards,

John

[Leonardj]

At the risk perhaps of over-simplification, would it be at all feasible to break the pre-war Mark I pistols into just three major categories?

1st series - all straight grip variants without the adjustable trigger.
2nd series - all straight grip variants with the adjustable trigger.
3rd series - all slant grip variants.


Alternatively, using the criteria that John outlines in his post directly above, another (again, perhaps over simplistic) possibility for three categories.

1st series - Spring clip models and Breech Block marked models (incorporating the post spring clip slim frame models and in fact all pistols until international patents were stamped either side of the air cylinder).

2nd series - International Model (incorporating all pistols with full international patents stamped either side of the air cylinder + etched models)

3rd series - Slant grip variants.

[Josie & John]

I think good arguments can be made for all of the suggestions made so far. I also think many of us have our own idea of what constitutes each series. I'm open to persuasion but as I said previously, universal buy in would be required for any proposed system to be of benefit to us. The problem we have facing us is there were lots of variations of the Mark I and trying to categorise them all into just a few series is not easy, as I think we all appreciate.

It may be best to leave the straight grip Mark I alone without trying too hard to classify each variant. After all, pistols were serial numbered and variants I have examined over the years seem to follow a fairly consistent chronological order. Perhaps an informal list consisting of each variant known, together with a serial number range for each variant may be of more benefit. Maybe between us we can reach David's tally of 22 different types, which I think is entirely feasible. Let me start off (I won't include serial numbers at this stage as this element would require wider input and this is simply an example:

Single Spring Clip Model
Double Spring Clip Model
Early Thumbcatch Model with Patent Applied For on Breech Block. Slim grips
British Patent on Breech Block Model without Trigger Adjustment
British Patent on Breech Block Model with Trigger Adjustment
British Patent on Breech Block Model with U.S.A. Patents Pending Model
International Patent Model with patents stamped above and below WEBLEY MARK I and BRITISH PATENT stampings
Etched Patents Model with MADE IN ENGLAND on breech block and British Patent on right front of cylinder
Etched Patents Model with no stampings on Breech Block or right front of cylinder
International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and non locking trigger adjuster
International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Birmingham & London address
International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Birmingham address
International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Twin Bung Model
Abridged International Patent Model (, U.S and Canada only) with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster
Stoeger marked Model
Smoothbore Mark I
Retailer marked Mark I (non Stoeger)

John

[Leonardj]

Perhaps an informal list consisting of each variant known, together with a serial number range for each variant may be of more benefit. Maybe between us we can reach David's tally of 22 different types, which I think is entirely feasible. Let me start off (I won't include serial numbers at this stage as this element would require wider input and this is simply an example:

Single Spring Clip Model
Double Spring Clip Model
Early Thumbcatch Model with Patent Applied For on Breech Block. Slim grips
British Patent on Breech Block Model without Trigger Adjustment
British Patent on Breech Block Model with Trigger Adjustment
British Patent on Breech Block Model with U.S.A. Patents Pending Model
International Patent Model with patents stamped above and below WEBLEY MARK I and BRITISH PATENT stampings
Etched Patents Model
Stoeger marked Model
International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and non locking trigger adjuster
International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Birmingham & London address
International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Birmingham address
International Patent Model with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster. Twin Bung Model
Abridged International Patent Model (, U.S and Canada only) with Webley Mark I on right side of Cylinder and locking trigger adjuster

John

This sounds like an interesting plan.
The combination of such detailed descriptions, along with the serial number ranges, would aid in eliminating the ambiguity of some of the current classifications.

[Josie & John]

This sounds like an interesting plan.
The combination of such detailed descriptions, along with the serial number ranges, would aid in eliminating the ambiguity of some of the current classifications.

Hi Len,

I'm not sure how this will pan out but I have started a table of variants and corresponding known serial numbers. I'll start a fresh thread asking for input.

Kind regards,

John

[Leonardj]

The reference to U.S. Patents pending is interesting. I wonder if this pistol was a very U.S. Import by Hoffman Arms Company?

Further correspondence with the gent that I purchased the gun from has confirmed that he bought the gun from a seller in Michigan, USA.
Appears that it may be very well possible that it was an early import to the US by Hoffman Arms Company.