Pre-War Webley Junior Ser Nos.

[Abasmajor]

Hi,

A Webley collector on another forum is doing some research into production numbers for pre-war Juniors using Gordon Bruce's book as a basic reference source.

His question is summarised as follows:

The text states that serial manufacture of this model commenced before the end of 1928, and that manufacture was halted in 1939 due to the outbreak of war, with total production exceeding 30,500 (page 52).

The production summary at the end of the chapter seems to indicate total production numbers reached approximately 34,000.

So, has anybody come across a pre-war Junior with a Ser No above J30500 ?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Brian

[Josie & John]

Hi Brian,

As coincidence has it, I have been undertaking similar research and the answer so far is 'no'. I'd be interested to see if there are higher serial numbers than those quoted. The highest number I am presently aware of is in the J30200s and this is believed to be an 'Anniversary' model from 1942.

Not sure if the researcher is aware of when cylinder stampings changed from the prewar style to those commonly seen on post war Juniors? The barrel was also shortened around this time. I am aware of pistols with the 'later' features in the J28000 range but understand the change came earlier. It would be good to pin it down.

Kind regards,

John

[webman]

Hi John, one of my "tin grip" Juniors is number J27298 and this has the longer standard barrel. Hope this helps to narrow down the search for the changeover point.

[Josie & John]

Hi John, one of my "tin grip" Juniors is number J27298 and this has the longer standard barrel. Hope this helps to narrow down the search for the changeover point.

Thank you Webman - that helps. Does J27298 have the prewar style of trade stampings to the cylinder or the post war type?

Prewar:
THE WEBLEY "JUNIOR" .177
PATENTED GREAT BRITAIN NO. 219872
AND ALL PRINCIPLE COUNTRIES

Postwar/Late Prewar:
THE WEBLEY "JUNIOR" .177
WEBLEY & SCOTT LTD. BIRMINGHAM 4
MADE IN ENGLAND

Kind regards,

John

[webman]

I don't know if this is going to help or cause more questions to be asked. My gun has on the LHS:

WEBLEY JUNIOR .177
WEBLEY & SCOTT LTD. BIRMINGHAM
MADE IN ENGLAND

No mention of "4".

Bruce states on P51 that this form of lettering came in between serials J24500 and J25000.

[Chris-S]

Hi

My name is Chris Sabine and I am the collector who put the original post on another site. Many thanks to Brian, John and Webman for your most helpful contributions. Not having received any replies to my post I was thinking of putting it on this forum but Brian has beaten me to it! Many thanks Brian for your help, it's much appreciated.

It would appear that there are a number of variations in the inscriptions on the Junior pistol. Although at first glance they may appear the same they are in fact not. Gordon Bruce gives a date for the change from the 'standard' pre-war inscription with the patent number etc to the later style between ser nos J24500 and J25000 (page 51). I do not have any records between these numbers to narrow down the changeover more precisely.

The new inscription says:

WEBLEY JUNIOR .177
WEBLEY & SCOTT LTD. BIRMINGHAM
MADE IN ENGLAND

However this change is not the final one. A further change was made much later, at about ser no J30000, to the inscription as used immediately post-war. This is:

THE WEBLEY "JUNIOR" .177
WEBLEY & SCOTT LTD. BIRMINGHAM 4
MADE IN ENGLAND

The highest number in my database is also in the J30200s and is I suspect the same pistol mentioned by John. I am rather suspicious of the 1942 dating since I do not believe the C40 and C42 codes with which this pistol's box is marked are in fact date codes. There are many of these codes applied to box labels, instruction sheets, brochures, etc, and they cannot all be date codes. For instance a pre-war 1939 Webley air pistol brochure is actually dated July 1939, but is also marked with the code C67, and there are many other similar examples.

I have tied down the shortening of the barrel from 6.5 to 6.0 inches to within about 200 units either side of J29600.

I have in my collection one of the very late B4 pre-war pistols, ser no in the upper 30100s which appears to be identical to the above mentioned pistol. My pistol also has a rather unusual feature in that the barrel is ser no'd to the pistol - I have not seen this on any other Webley pistol, but it is in a position normally hidden from view and consists of the last 3 figures of the ser no, as on the front face of the spring guide, but is stamped on the rear face of the barrel pivot.

Must stop now as the dogs are going berserk for their suppers

ATB Chris S.

[Mr. Gen]

barrel length/design is a notoriously misleading guide for webley pistols - barrel changes were and are so common.. I have a low number Junior in the 800's but nothing above 26500, but still with the longer barrel at that point...

[Josie & John]

Thanks Both - Brian, sorry to have hijacked this thread!

John

[Abasmajor]

Thanks Both - Brian, sorry to have hijacked this thread!

John

Hello John,

No problem. It's often the case that one thing leading to another results in useful, additional information.

Regards

Brian

[Josie & John]

Hi Chris,

I completely missed this post when I last replied to this thread -please accept my apologies. I think you are bang on with the changes and are correct about the C prefixed codes. They are not date stamps but simply a way of identifying labels, catalogues, leaflets, etc. Firstly coming into use during the mid 1930s, the codes have confused many collectors into thinking for example, that C.67 was a date rather than a code. I typed out a summary of all such codes known to me some years ago (pre word docs) and will tabulate this one day.

I think the 1942 Webley Anniversary claim originated from a June 1978 Harvey article in Airgun World but 1940 makes more sense as the 150th Anniversary if 1790 is considered the beginning. Indeed the box accompanying J30223 has a sticker stating 'WEBLEY & SCOTT LIMITED 1790 -1940'. I suspect 30, 500 is the more likely figure of total Juniors produced and the 34, 000 is an error.

Thanks for sharing your research with us Chris and apologies once more for the late reply

John

Hi

My name is Chris Sabine and I am the collector who put the original post on another site. Many thanks to Brian, John and Webman for your most helpful contributions. Not having received any replies to my post I was thinking of putting it on this forum but Brian has beaten me to it! Many thanks Brian for your help, it's much appreciated.

It would appear that there are a number of variations in the inscriptions on the Junior pistol. Although at first glance they may appear the same they are in fact not. Gordon Bruce gives a date for the change from the 'standard' pre-war inscription with the patent number etc to the later style between ser nos J24500 and J25000 (page 51). I do not have any records between these numbers to narrow down the changeover more precisely.

The new inscription says:

WEBLEY JUNIOR .177
WEBLEY & SCOTT LTD. BIRMINGHAM
MADE IN ENGLAND

However this change is not the final one. A further change was made much later, at about ser no J30000, to the inscription as used immediately post-war. This is:

THE WEBLEY "JUNIOR" .177
WEBLEY & SCOTT LTD. BIRMINGHAM 4
MADE IN ENGLAND

The highest number in my database is also in the J30200s and is I suspect the same pistol mentioned by John. I am rather suspicious of the 1942 dating since I do not believe the C40 and C42 codes with which this pistol's box is marked are in fact date codes. There are many of these codes applied to box labels, instruction sheets, brochures, etc, and they cannot all be date codes. For instance a pre-war 1939 Webley air pistol brochure is actually dated July 1939, but is also marked with the code C67, and there are many other similar examples.

I have tied down the shortening of the barrel from 6.5 to 6.0 inches to within about 200 units either side of J29600.

I have in my collection one of the very late B4 pre-war pistols, ser no in the upper 30100s which appears to be identical to the above mentioned pistol. My pistol also has a rather unusual feature in that the barrel is ser no'd to the pistol - I have not seen this on any other Webley pistol, but it is in a position normally hidden from view and consists of the last 3 figures of the ser no, as on the front face of the spring guide, but is stamped on the rear face of the barrel pivot.

Must stop now as the dogs are going berserk for their suppers

ATB Chris S.

[Chris-S]

Hi John

Many thanks for your reply and kind comments regarding my research findings. It’s my turn now to apologise for this late reply! Actually the reason you missed my reply to this post was because my post was being moderated – so not your fault. Although I have been a member of this forum for nearly 4 years but have not posted, apparently that makes me a newbie so my posts have to be moderated before they will show on the forum.

I’ve not come across this system before on any of the other forums I belong to (not all gun related) – however that appears to be the way of it here, which makes it rather difficult when trying to reply to a thread since the relevance can be lost, and those who have read the thread may have to read it all again to pick up on previous posts which appeared after their original reading.

So thanks again for your reply, ATB Chris S.

[Josie & John]

Hi Chris,

At least the moderation won't last for ever, so hopefully you should be able to add value to topics under discussion without too much delay. One other 'benchmark' in Webley Junior development I have come across is J3158. The pistol has steel grips and an adjustable rearsight. This is the earliest steel gripped Junior known to me, whilst the highest wood gripped model is J1956, which once belonged to a well respected member on here.

Kind regards,

John

[Chris-S]

Hi John

Many thanks for that data - it's in the database.

ATB Chris S.

[Fronteria]

I have a tin grip Junior No. J5438
Three Photographs if you are interested.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fronte...57625460446566
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fronte...57625460446566
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fronte...57625460446566

[Chris-S]

Hi Fronteria

Many thanks for posting the pics - very useful details now in my database.

ATB Chris S.