Stories of a wannabe reloader......

[GaleForceEight]

Edit: In the light of numpties whose motivations seem to be based around deconstructive trolling I would ask anyone reading this and replying to remain constructive. the idea of this thread is to share knowledge and experiences rather than as a festival of mudslinging. If you cannot or will not say anything positive, please do not say anything at all! Thank you.

Okay, so I have made the decision to start to reload. How and why did I come to make that choice?

Why? Well looking at the prices of factory loads compared to the cost of setting up for reloading and considering the relatively few rounds I go through it certainly isn't a decision that revolves purely around economics - although the economics may come into that at a later date.

The 8mmx57 rounds for one of my wife's Mausers are not the easiest to find, and those that seem to be available are more often than not elderly military rounds with the old type (and very corrosive) primers, variable in powder and quality, and to be honest not very reliable. The barrel is not in the best condition after 60 years of storage (the inside of the barrel under the cosmoline, when we removed the rifle from preservation was an exhibition worthy of the "wonderful world of corrosion" - still safe to shoot but really was never going to be truly accurate, so the barrel is being replaced by Mr Sarony at Armalon. The simple solution to guarantee a reliable supply of good and consistant ammunition for a rifle that deserves better than old milsurp is to start 'rolling our own'.

Having made the choice to go down that route, in order to bring the average fixed cost of each round down it makes sense to use that fixed investment to start making my own .303 ammunition, and .308 ammunition tailored specifically to the chambers of our respective match rifles to not only bring the average cost per round down, but to make best use of the equipment. We have enough spent brass kicking around to keep us banging away like armed policemen for years to come without having to buy more cases, so the cost of reloading each round will basically come down to propellant, primers, bullets, the hardware required to do it, and the time to both carry out the physical work and just as importantly the research to get it right first time. It's not the kind of thing you can jump into blindly. If you are going to jump, take a look first!

So, I have taken a look and decided to make the leap.

What do I actually need to do this properly? It is a complex task, multiple stages each of which is critical to producing good ammunition - I am not wanting to make rounds for casual plinking (well actually that is exactly what I am going to do, but I actually want the bullets to end up in the right place up to 900 yards from where I am at the time; so if I am going to do this job I may as well do it properly - I want to guarantee that the weakest link in the accuracy stakes is the squidgy bit behind the butt!)

The most popular gear used over here in the UK is the Lee systems. As an aero engineer I buy good quality tools because buying cheap is not always best - cheap is more likely to break - not only the tool, but the expensive components that you are working on can be damaged as cheap is often not good in tolerances, cheap is more often than not a false economy as having bought the wrong thing once, you then have to buy the right thing anyway - so why not buy the right thing first time around?

I am sure Lee make some splendid stuff, but then why in the US where the market for reloading is so much bigger than that in the UK do the Americans tend towards Dillon, Redding, and RCBS? I am not going to mention retailers names here, but a place where you can currently buy a certain press in the US for $513 (£325), why does the same outfit's UK branch expect to charge over £860 for the same item? Economy of scale, but self inflicted by UK retailers overpricing things thereby expounding a bad situation and making it worse.
We tend to buy Lee products because most other brands of reloading equipment are overpriced rather than because they necessarily do the job better.

So I looked to the US to see what could be got from different sources.
Cue an 'RCBS Rockchucker Supreme Master Kit' reloading press. Single stage press, good quality scales and propellant dispenser, and a whole host of other useful bits and pieces all brand new and all for the bargain price of £220 including postage and customs charges prepaid - so Parcelfarce don't even have the dubious honour of charging me for the pleasure of charging me the customs fees. The cheapest I could find the exact same kit over here was £415, so the way I look at this is that even if I decide to backtrack and go back to using factory loaded ammunition I would still be able to sell it on for a modest profit! In short I will have lost noting but gained knowledge.

Even if I move to a progressive press later on, the single stage will always be useful for de-capping prior to tumbling or small volume 'experimental' loading (as in varying according to the manual to see what is best for a specific rifle - rather than full blown Darwin-Award winning "let's try this and see what happens!" style experimentation!).

I have a bunch of the general hand tools, accurate digital vernier, micrometer, and all the good stuff purely because it has been part of my work for the last decade or two. I even found a carbide cutter and appropriate sized pilot in my toolbox for case trimming

Of course on top of the cost of the basic hardware comes the calibre specific stuff. Shellholders and Dies.

So what do you actually need?

Shellholders keep the case secure and aligned while you are working on it. For the three calibres I will be working on I need two different sizes as the .308Win and 8mmx57 Mauser cases share a common holder.

Each calibre needs a series of different dies to form the case back to dimensions, which is not always a one stage process, and depending on application you may want to use a die that only reworks the neck of the case than reforming the full length.
The full length dies will be useful for making "generic" reloads not specific to a particular rifle, such as for use in club rifles, where though the accuracy is still critical, any given round needs to be right to fit in one of several rifles.
The neck only dies are more appropriate to where you will be returning the fired case to the same rifle, and are loading critically with a view to that particular rifle; so you want the headspace to be small, and the bullet seating to be such that the bullet in the chambered round is close to the rifling lands but a few thou from engaging them (the increased effective inertia can have hugely undesired consequences as the initial burst of energy ties to start the bullet moving, you do NOT want the chamber pressure to build to unsafe levels - that bullet needs to start moving early but with as small a gap to 'jump' as is reasonable).

The case then needs priming... primers are explosive, and critical items in handling. They are only small, but uncontained they are still dangerous. Safety specs a must, latex gloves desirable when handling. I mention the priming now because you do not want to be sticking a primer into a case you have charged with powder already, just in case it goes horribly wrong - a primer detonating during seating is bad enough, but detonating into a loaded or partially cartridge is worse!

In goes the charge.... take your time over this to get it right. Scales that measure 1/10 grain are needed for consistent loads. If for the sale of speed you are using an automatic powder thrower, fill it, throw 10 charges, then put the powder back into the hopper. this removes the denser powder from the port area where the weight of the rest in the hopper has pressed down on it as you load the reservoir. Then throw and weigh five charges to ensure the machine is giving the desired charge weight consistently. After that you may only need to check-weigh every 10th round. For match rounds, you can always weigh each charge individually before you funnel it into each cartridge to ensure that 1/10 grain consistency, but for the sake of expediting 'casual' loads +/- 1/10 of a grain won't make a huge difference as there are more critical aspects of the process that make a proportionately larger difference to ultimate accuracy.

The other die you will need is a die for seating the bullet in the case once the powder has been thrown (double check each one for powder charge before you do this - engage brain before engaging bullet! - two abnormal situations you may have. Double charging (twice the powder, can be disastrous in regards to chamber pressures) or no charge (potentially even worse than double charging as if the failure is not noticed, the primer detonating having pushed a round into the barrel, chambering another round into a blocked barrel and you have a guaranteed visit to the hospital if you do not get taken straight into the morgue. Yes it is that serious. Check it. Then check it again.
There is a die you can fit to progressive presses with a 'dipstick' powder indicator acting like a 'go/no go' gauge as each round passes through that station. If you start using a progressive press where you are churning out rounds quickly, it will be a clear visual indicator that something is wrong!

Anyway.... onto the bullet seating dies. These are what seat the bullet into the prepared neck of the case to the depth that you set. your reloading manual will have maximum dimensions for the cartridge you are making, but you can tailor the seating depth to a particular rifle chamber. When you are loading for a specific rifle, get this set-up right before you start trying the different charge loads for optimum performance, as getting this right (or wrong) will make a huge difference in your ultimate accuracy.
one thing I have noticed is that many people in the US seem to gravitate towards the Redding competition seating die in preference to the others. So they may be using an RCBS or Dillon press, but Redding Competition Bullet Seating die.

THERE IS ALWAYS A REASON FOR THINGS, so in looking for dies, I will want a basic 'Full length' die for making generic ammunition, a necking die for rifle-specific ammunition using fire-formed cases from that rifle, a seating die for ensuring the bullets go in straight and to the correct depth.
For our .308 target rifles I would want to invest in a Redding Competition die basically because I can then mark the micro-meter adjustment on it to custom seat bullets for both Sam's and my rifles which though they are accurate enough with bog standard factory loads, it will be interesting to see how far my new-found knowledge and creating optimised ammunition will affect the groups.

Anyway, signing off for now.... and bear in mind I have only touched on SOME of the process involved in reloading here. I will be doing some more reading and clearing garage space to set up an organised and clean reloading station in preparation for when the press arrives, and will (if people would like) present some more discourse on the subject as and when.

[tacfoley]

'de-capping prior to tumbling'.

Hmm. OKaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

There MUST be a reason why I've been doing it the other way around for the last forty-seven years, as, I suspect, have most of us.

You then wrote 'THERE IS ALWAYS A REASON FOR THINGS'.

Yup, sure is. I'll let you find out why.

tac

[Dalua]

'de-capping prior to tumbling'

I do it this way round, too. I like to run shiny clean brass into my FL die.
Most of all though, I love poking bits of crushed walnut-shell out of flash-holes: so relaxing!

[GaleForceEight]

'de-capping prior to tumbling'.

Hmm. OKaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

There MUST be a reason why I've been doing it the other way around for the last forty-seven years, as, I suspect, have most of us.

You then wrote 'THERE IS ALWAYS A REASON FOR THINGS'.

Yup, sure is. I'll let you find out why.

tac

If you are referring to media getting trapped in the flash hole I had already considered that.

Is giving constructive advice to someone who is new to something, trying to find their way, and share their journey beyond you?

Or are you just going to squat on your forty-seven years experience in the subject and just make disparaging remarks? Because if that is your style then your opinion and knowledge may not be worthless but as a man you are. Try reading Dalua's signature and then ask whether your comment is worthy of the more positive aspects of it.

[Rifleman]

I do it this way round, too. I like to run shiny clean brass into my FL die.
Most of all though, I love poking bits of crushed walnut-shell out of flash-holes: so relaxing!

Yes I'm of this persuasion too

[GaleForceEight]

For those who have read Swift, I suspect this 'do you clean the brass before or after decapping' could turn into a 'big-endian little-endian' argument which is something I wish to avoid.

So long as the flash holes are checked as clear I don't see a problem. Personally I would rather run clean brass through a die than dirty; the positive thing about Tac's raising the issue is one of reminding any readers to check the brass thoroughly once cleaned INCLUDING the flash hole and primer pocket MOST ESPECIALLY CAREFULLY if using steel polishing media in a wet tumbler.

[loiner1965]

use a ultrasonic cleaner to prep cases prior to resizing but make sure the cases are dry

[tacfoley]

GaleForceEight;6480316 wrote - If you are referring to media getting trapped in the flash hole I had already considered that.

Ah, that's OK then.

Is giving constructive advice to someone who is new to something, trying to find their way, and share their journey beyond you?

Well, Sir, giving constructive advice is nothing new to me to those who seem to be in need of it. You, Sir, from the tone and content of your mighty missive, do not.

Or are you just going to squat on your forty-seven years experience in the subject and just make disparaging remarks?

Pretty much.

Because if that is your style then your opinion and knowledge may not be worthless but as a man you are.

I think you know the answer to that one - re-read the rules of this forum, if in doubt. Sarcasm is one thing, but making unecessarily insulting remarks is quite another.

Try reading Dalua's signature and then ask whether your comment is worthy of the more positive aspects of it.

I did, and..?

Anyhow, this is meant to be a place where people can come and learn, and my few thousand posts here already should give you some idea of my viewpoint in that respect. I'm very happy to inform those who know less than I do, but loathe to try and form any kind of a happy relationship with those who post tracts of facts, posing as novices, when it is readily apparent that they already know as much as the folks they are asking.

tac

[GaleForceEight]

GaleForceEight;6480316 wrote - If you are referring to media getting trapped in the flash hole I had already considered that.

Ah, that's OK then.

Is giving constructive advice to someone who is new to something, trying to find their way, and share their journey beyond you?

Well, Sir, giving constructive advice is nothing new to me to those who seem to be in need of it. You, Sir, from the tone and content of your mighty missive, do not.

Or are you just going to squat on your forty-seven years experience in the subject and just make disparaging remarks?

Pretty much.

Because if that is your style then your opinion and knowledge may not be worthless but as a man you are.

I think you know the answer to that one - re-read the rules of this forum, if in doubt. Sarcasm is one thing, but making unecessarily insulting remarks is quite another.

Try reading Dalua's signature and then ask whether your comment is worthy of the more positive aspects of it.

I did, and..?

Anyhow, this is meant to be a place where people can come and learn, and my few thousand posts here already should give you some idea of my viewpoint in that respect. I'm very happy to inform those who know less than I do, but loathe to try and form any kind of a happy relationship with those who post tracts of facts, posing as novices, when it is readily apparent that they already know as much as the folks they are asking.

tac

Posing as a novice? LOL. I have as yet not reloaded a single cartridge but my post surmises much of the useful information I have dug out through doing a bit of bookwork before I start. I've been shooting a few years however, so I am familiar with the basics tempered by reading from a number of different sources.

If you feel that it is readily apparent that I know so much, then I guess that is a compliment and shows I have taken the correct path in researching the subject in order to minimise the chance of it going horribly wrong. However if the tone and content of the missive I have presented gives the impression that I don't need constructive advice then that impression is wholly wrong. If your approach had been along the lines of 'have you considered tumbling before de-capping for this or that reason' perhaps you would have come across better and I might be able to take anything you say seriously.

If you really don't understand why I referred you to Dalua's signature I suggest you take another look at it in relation to your attitude and comments, and then consider which of the two polarised sides applies to those before re-evaluating your attitude hopefully for the better.

Congratulations on your thousands of posts, but why would I want to trawl through an individuals history of posting in the hope or expectation that those may be different from the one you made to me that exposed you as being what you are? Your snide and presumptive comments say far more about you as a person than I ever could.

I guess I made that long 'missive' for a number of reasons, firstly to validate what I have read in my head, and secondly that sharing my thoughts and 'journey' into the subject may give others the confidence to look into it themselves, by lifting the veil of mystery behind reloading, which although has exacting requirements and essential quality control does not actually have to be difficult. the last thing that is required is some wallah boasting about how much experience he has and then making derogatory comments without being in the least constructive.
Regardless, I don't need to sit in judgement over you as your own attitude does that all by itself.

How about we let all this go by the wayside and start over. If you feel I have stated something incorrectly please try to keep it constructive and civilised, and I will do the same.

[GaleForceEight]

use a ultrasonic cleaner to prep cases prior to resizing but make sure the cases are dry

RCBS do a reasonably priced ultrasonic cleaner, though I have my eyes on a vibration type one that was on that auction site. Definitely something to look into.

How well does it clean them?

I read (I think on this site actually) that leaving cases to dry overnight (or an hour in an oven - on low temperature so as not to ruin the case temper) to dry the cases as a rule of thumb, but I believe that was in reference not to ultrasonic cleaning so much as wet tumbling with steel media; though the drying procedure would presumably be the same! After removing the cases from the ultrasonic cleaning fluid do they need rinsing in water first as I am assuming the chemicals in the cleaning fluid would need rinsing off the cases?

[Simon_S]

Could get one of these mate works ok for me
LEE CLASSIC TURRET PRESS

http://www.henrykrank.com/index.php?...oducts_id=1553

[amc577]

I do decap first but I use an ultrasonic cleaner, purchased from Aldi for £20! Diet Coca cola warmed in a pan also works fine if you have nothing else....I am advised by a chemist friend, however, that the phosphoric acid in the coca cola, might affect the brass.....a mix of 50/50 white vinegar/water in the ultrasonic cleaner seems to work fine, followed by a session in plain water (distilled if you have it) to neutralise the acid. Dry off in an oven.

amc577

[strebblo]

GF8, the tone of your opening post was a little along the lines of inviting the more experienced to suck eggs, but doesn't seem intended to cause offence, which is probably why Tac took it the wrong way a bit.

Having said that, it's clear Tha you have taken a long time to research the subject in depth before doing any reloading, so that's a nice change from the usual I've bought a lee anniversary kit, now what do I do?' brigade...

So in effect with a few helpful pointers from the experienced hands on the forum, you'll be well on your way. I'm not really one of them, but I've been doing it long enough to know what Im doing and I read about the subject a hell of a lot because you can never know everything

So, in a very small nutshell, if you tumble your cases in a dry system with walnut/corn cob media, then don't bother to de cap them first - the inside of the case isn't actually cleaned anyway, so that makes little difference and only the outside gets a polish. If it still bothers you, buy a cheap lee universal decapping die which does the job and is a sacrificial item. I'd say almost 100% of reloaders decap after tumbling just because it is a pain to poke out the media from the flash holes, and the primer pocket doesn't really get any cleaning from dry tumbling.

If you want insides cleaned too, then buy an ultrasonic bath cleaner and some James SeaClean (online, maplins, e bay etc.). Decap with the sacrificial lee tool then chuck em in the U/S bath, towel off when clean (to prevent water stains outside) and then put them in the oven at 100c for 15 minutes on a wire rack. You could also experiment with citric acid and a few drops of fairy liquid - also does a great job, cheaply, but make sure to do a bicarb rinse to neutralize the acids before drying.

If you really want to spend a chunk of money for extremely clean cases with no effort on your part, then go for wet stainless tumbling. Follow the towling off and oven drying afterwards.


Hope that's helpful

[Fenrir.2]

Having read this thread, I shall be telling my daughter not to waste money on driving lessons and time practising, instead I shall tell her to get a book on the subject, read it thoroughly and will have all the knowledge and skill to go and pass her test straight away. You cannot beat book learning over experience.

[tacfoley]

GF8, the tone of your opening post was a little along the lines of inviting the more experienced to suck eggs, but doesn't seem intended to cause offence, which is probably why Tac took it the wrong way a bit.

Zackly.

tac