Webley Mark I Straight Grip Variants

[splosh!]

Thank you splosh! Presumably the pistol has the (slightly) smaller frame and grips?

John

sorry john i have only the one mk 1 so can not compare.

[Josie & John]

sorry john i have only the one mk 1 so can not compare.

No probs!

[le frelon]

Hi John,
apologies.........you are correct, it only has the B'ham address NOT London. Must try harder.

Yes, that was me at Bisley. Picked up 1957 L.Wesley book, earlier than my others, but nothing much else took my fancy. I hear that you made a bit of a rare find re a pellet tin. I'll try to catch up with you on the 26th. if not the 29th. at the vintage shoot and you can spill the beans!

atb
Carl

[Josie & John]

Hi John,
apologies.........you are correct, it only has the B'ham address NOT London. Must try harder.

Yes, that was me at Bisley. Picked up 1957 L.Wesley book, earlier than my others, but nothing much else took my fancy. I hear that you made a bit of a rare find re a pellet tin. I'll try to catch up with you on the 26th. if not the 29th. at the vintage shoot and you can spill the beans!

atb
Carl

Thanks Carl,

Glad you found something. I had a good day but left fairly early as have developed a chesty cough Found a late BSA IMD with No 21a aperture sight and properly stock inlet No 8 sight to match the combination No 19 foresight. Sights all over the place! The unfortunate thing is the 21a was not factory fitted and to be frank, it's redundant in this set up, so it'll probably come off. I briefly tested the rifle indoors when I got back and she's hitting the 3/8 in aperture of my bell target consistently, so I'm chuffed.

I finally found an unopened box of wartime issue pellets, which I had been after for some time and these would have been rationed to those with a good official need to use air rifles during wartime, such as Home Guard or cadets for practice. I wonder if authorised persons were also issued these to supplement dietary requirements! Not sure who made them - I'm guessing Kynoch / ICI or perhaps Lanes. I also sourced an unopened oblong tin of Webley pellets with a .177 oversticker, which was the one oblong tin I didn't have.

Kind regards,

John

[Chris-S]

Hi John

Interested to note you bought some military air rifle pellets. There have been a couple of packs of 1000 for sale fairly recently, both dated 1941 I think, and also both from the Indian State Arsenal at Amanpour.

I don't know what they were used for but suspect they may have been originally intended for the BSA Gun Laying Teacher. An anecdote I read a long time ago, I don't remember where, said BSA air rifles were used in India by the military to keep down the rats in the stables!

I may have read it in an Indian military memoir as I used to have quite an extensive library of Indian military matters, and also quite a large collection of East India Company and East India Government firearms and accessories - now alas all disposed of. All I have left are some detached British military percussion locks, some spare original rifle musket parts, invoices back to the 1960's (my first Martini Henry cost GBP 11 in 1968 from Magnum Arms Company - I used to shoot it quite regularly) and many photos and fond memories of my lovely guns.

Sorry for the trip down Memory Lane - I'll stop now

ATB Chris.

[Josie & John]

Hi John

Interested to note you bought some military air rifle pellets. There have been a couple of packs of 1000 for sale fairly recently, both dated 1941 I think, and also both from the Indian State Arsenal at Amanpour.

I don't know what they were used for but suspect they may have been originally intended for the BSA Gun Laying Teacher. An anecdote I read a long time ago, I don't remember where, said BSA air rifles were used in India by the military to keep down the rats in the stables!

I may have read it in an Indian military memoir as I used to have quite an extensive library of Indian military matters, and also quite a large collection of East India Company and East India Government firearms and accessories - now alas all disposed of. All I have left are some detached British military percussion locks, some spare original rifle musket parts, invoices back to the 1960's (my first Martini Henry cost GBP 11 in 1968 from Magnum Arms Company - I used to shoot it quite regularly) and many photos and fond memories of my lovely guns.

Sorry for the trip down Memory Lane - I'll stop now

ATB Chris.

Hi Chris,

Very interesting - thanks for posting. My box is 1942 dated. I have also read they may have been for the BSA GLT but am not convinced as the GLT was introduced way before 1941 or 42. I think they were rationed at a time when lead airgun pellet production ground to a halt. How were you able to tell the pellets you mentioned originated from Amanpour?

Kind regards,

John

[Chris-S]

Hi John

John Knibbs in his latest book gives quite a large amount of detail concerning the BSA GLT. Here he tells us (p118) that "Most of the Teachers made under government contracts were produced from 1938 up to the last one being despatched in 1947". Also (p121) that GLTs were still in use in the 1950's in New Zealand in Valentine tanks as layers for their 2-pounder guns.

In my somewhat limited experience I have never come across or heard of an authentic British officially military inspected and marked air rifle of any kind except the GLT, although it is quite likely that some may have been trialled.

When in my grammar school's Combined Cadet Force in the 1950's we used SMLEs, No 4s, Bren guns, Martini Enfields sleeved for 22, also SMLEs similarly sleeved. We also had a number of BSA Martini Internationals in 22. The government provided ammunition for all of these rifles except the 22s - for these we used standard Eley 22LR cartridges in white boxes with black lettering.

I know many schools had air rifles for the use of their cadet forces, but I believe these were private purchase rifles or gifts and I think it most unlikely that the military would have provided air rifle ammunition for them. As far as I'm aware the military only provided ammunition for their own weapons, with the exception of round ball 12-bore cartridges for the Home Guard in WW2. Of course they may have provided other ammunition in the exceptional circumstances, but this would need detailed research.

It is thus my opinion that the military packets of air rifle ammunition were produced for the GLT, since no other air rifles were approved by the military. Of course they may have been used later for other purposes after the gun layers were declared obsolete. Existing unused stock may well have been sold off as government surplus, probably in the 1960's and 70's.

As far as Amanpour is concerned I don't recall what made me think they came from this arsenal (there were many State Arsenals in India), possibly the letter A along with the India Government mark of a broad arrow over the capital letter I. I'm afraid I didn't take that much notice of them as I don't consider them proper air rifle ammunition. I have also seen these packets bearing a capital letter L, often alongside the issue date, and suspect this may be for "Layer".

It is an interesting thought that this ammo may have been supplied for cadet or Home Guard training in WW2 but I know of no official record of this. Even if it was I would suspect it would have been initially produced for the GLT and then perhaps issued from existing stocks for the GLT - but all this is speculation.

Mind you I'm getting a bit ancient now and memory can do odd things, but I certainly don't recall any official military use of air rifles and ammunition other than the GLT.

Hope this explains my thinking on the matter - ATB Chris.

[Josie & John]

Hi John

John Knibbs in his latest book gives quite a large amount of detail concerning the BSA GLT. Here he tells us (p118) that "Most of the Teachers made under government contracts were produced from 1938 up to the last one being despatched in 1947". Also (p121) that GLTs were still in use in the 1950's in New Zealand in Valentine tanks as layers for their 2-pounder guns.

In my somewhat limited experience I have never come across or heard of an authentic British officially military inspected and marked air rifle of any kind except the GLT, although it is quite likely that some may have been trialled.

When in my grammar school's Combined Cadet Force in the 1950's we used SMLEs, No 4s, Bren guns, Martini Enfields sleeved for 22, also SMLEs similarly sleeved. We also had a number of BSA Martini Internationals in 22. The government provided ammunition for all of these rifles except the 22s - for these we used standard Eley 22LR cartridges in white boxes with black lettering.

I know many schools had air rifles for the use of their cadet forces, but I believe these were private purchase rifles or gifts and I think it most unlikely that the military would have provided air rifle ammunition for them. As far as I'm aware the military only provided ammunition for their own weapons, with the exception of round ball 12-bore cartridges for the Home Guard in WW2. Of course they may have provided other ammunition in the exceptional circumstances, but this would need detailed research.

It is thus my opinion that the military packets of air rifle ammunition were produced for the GLT, since no other air rifles were approved by the military. Of course they may have been used later for other purposes after the gun layers were declared obsolete. Existing unused stock may well have been sold off as government surplus, probably in the 1960's and 70's.

As far as Amanpour is concerned I don't recall what made me think they came from this arsenal (there were many State Arsenals in India), possibly the letter A along with the India Government mark of a broad arrow over the capital letter I. I'm afraid I didn't take that much notice of them as I don't consider them proper air rifle ammunition. I have also seen these packets bearing a capital letter L, often alongside the issue date, and suspect this may be for "Layer".

It is an interesting thought that this ammo may have been supplied for cadet or Home Guard training in WW2 but I know of no official record of this. Even if it was I would suspect it would have been initially produced for the GLT and then perhaps issued from existing stocks for the GLT - but all this is speculation.

Mind you I'm getting a bit ancient now and memory can do odd things, but I certainly don't recall any official military use of air rifles and ammunition other than the GLT.

Hope this explains my thinking on the matter - ATB Chris.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts as always Chris.

I have an early BSA Air Rifle with the broad arrow on the trigger block. Interestingly the BSA stock has been replaced with the rear stock for an SMLE too. I was told the rifle was part of a batch used by the military but lost touch with the previous owner before he could elaborate on the rifles's provenance.

I am still trying to fathom the meaning of the L on my 'Military' pellets and will share when I find out. The packet also has the broad arrow and I.S.A.A. beneath. Could this be the I and broad arrow you were thinking of? The initials stand for Inspectorate of Small Arms Ammunition, which changed to Inspectorate of Small Arms & Ammunition post war, when the two areas merged.

I used to shoot No 4s in the cadets during the 1980s and L24s in 7.62 at Bisley if I remember correctly. Happy days!

Kind regards,

John

[Chris-S]

Hi John

Very interested to hear of your broad arrow marked BSA air rifle - pity you couldn't get the full story of the rifle. Perhaps a test piece for the BSA Military Pattern air rifle? Have you tried John Knibbs for further info?

As far as I'm aware the main symbol used by the Indian military to denote government ownership was a broad arrow over a capital letter I. This is often accompanied by an arsenal mark if the article was produced in one of the Indian arsenals. I have seen quite a number of different cartridges and packets of the same marked in various ways. Dumdum usually used a capital D immediately to the left of the arrow-I on the side of rolled case ammo, but they also used a double D with broad arrow in between on some 303 cartridge heads. I can't now remember all the different Indian arsenal marks - there are an awful lot of them. I have also seen standard packets of British made ammunition overstamped with a large Indian government mark, in purple if I remember correctly. It's a large subject.

ATB Chris.