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Thread: Black Powder firearms and muzzle velocity measurement?

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    Black Powder firearms and muzzle velocity measurement?

    Good evening Gentlemen. I am in the process of putting together some facts relating to the use of BP rifles (and perhaps pistols) at our outdoor 50m range. Advice from the NGB is that provided the range MV and ME maxima are not exceeded then there should be no reason to prevent the use of BP firearms (and yes, I'm aware that pistols are treated differently to rifles due to the significantly-increased cone of fire criteria).

    My question thus relates to the measurement of MV from a BP firearm. Can they be shot over a chrono without showering it in soot, or are the readings which may be obtained insufficiently accurate/repeatable? Do you have books/loading tables which give a reliable indication of MV for certain types and quantities of powder and weight of shot?

    Any help or guidance would be appreciated.

    Thanks.

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    you can shoot over a chrono but it must be a distance away from the muzzle or you shoot throught a paper screen which is in front of the chrono...... i prefer the first option.
    quickload as mv for bp loads

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    Quote Originally Posted by loiner1965 View Post
    you can shoot over a chrono but it must be a distance away from the muzzle or you shoot throught a paper screen which is in front of the chrono...... i prefer the first option.
    quickload as mv for bp loads
    Thanks for that Stephen. It would seem that both these options could be used by a prospective shooter to demonstrate to the RO that he's within limits then.

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    If you allow .357 carbines, then BP will not exceed their velocity.
    Energy is unhelpful on ranges, as a .50 cal BP at full stoke will have a very high energy, but losses it very rapidly compared to a .308 for example.
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    I certainly have tables of muzzle energy, using simple formulae based on velocity and weight of bullet, but there are so many variables in shooting BP firearms that it makes the use of charge weights as a method of calculating velocities unuseable.

    Barrel length is also a factor here, as is the type of firearm used.

    A Brown Bess using a maximum of 120gr of FFg will certainly 'ring gongs' at the shorter ranges, but as has been pointed out, downrange it's a different story, although at 50m it is not going to make much difference. Our 50m range, for instance, permits the use of LEAD projectiles up to and including .75cal to be shot, providing that they do not exceed 1500 fps. No Brown Bess on earth is going to match a 12g Brenneke slug either for velocity or m/e, and that is permitted on our range.

    To get 1500 fps out of a Black Bess you are going to use an improbably high load - always supposing that such a load would actually be burnt in the barrel.

    No BP handgun on earth is going to make 1500 fps - the usual limit of velocity, but letting us know the calibre will let us figure out the m/e, too.

    A lot more information is needed from the OP before I could try and offer any meaningful advice.

    So, OP, come back to me with the following details, and I just might be able to help you.

    1. Type of firearm[s] proposed.

    2. Current restrictions on YOUR range.

    To get you started, here is an easy-to-use m/e calculator - just fill out the blanks -

    http://www.americanairrifle.com/convert.htm

    tac

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmahow2 View Post
    If you allow .357 carbines, then BP will not exceed their velocity.
    Energy is unhelpful on ranges, as a .50 cal BP at full stoke will have a very high energy, but losses it very rapidly compared to a .308 for example.
    I believe that .357 carbine should be permitted (if we consider it to be a c/f pistol calibre) as the max. permitted is .44. The stipulations regarding MV/ME are in the range safety certificate, so MV will have to be measured to ensure that neither criterion is exceeded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    I certainly have tables of muzzle energy, using simple formulae based on velocity and weight of bullet, but there are so many variables in shooting BP firearms that it makes the use of charge weights as a method of calculating velocities unuseable.

    Barrel length is also a factor here, as is the type of firearm used.

    A Brown Bess using a maximum of 120gr of FFg will certainly 'ring gongs' at the shorter ranges, but as has been pointed out, downrange it's a different story, although at 50m it is not going to make much difference. Our 50m range, for instance, permits the use of LEAD projectiles up to and including .75cal to be shot, providing that they do not exceed 1500 fps. No Brown Bess on earth is going to match a 12g Brenneke slug either for velocity or m/e, and that is permitted on our range.

    To get 1500 fps out of a Black Bess you are going to use an improbably high load - always supposing that such a load would actually be burnt in the barrel.

    No BP handgun on earth is going to make 1500 fps - the usual limit of velocity, but letting us know the calibre will let us figure out the m/e, too.

    A lot more information is needed from the OP before I could try and offer any meaningful advice.

    So, OP, come back to me with the following details, and I just might be able to help you.

    1. Type of firearm[s] proposed.

    2. Current restrictions on YOUR range.

    To get you started, here is an easy-to-use m/e calculator - just fill out the blanks -

    http://www.americanairrifle.com/convert.htm

    tac
    Thanks, Tac - that's helpful. The restrictions at the range are as follows:


    The range is certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles up to .44 cal. only. The use of pistols and black powder firearms is prohibited.

    The maximum MV allowed on this range is 2145 fps & the maximum ME is 1495 ft.lbs


    We occasionally receive queries from shooters as to why pistols and BP are prohibited. That's a simple matter for pistols (the backstop/bullet catcher/sand bank is not of a suitable size) but I am less sure of the reason behind the prohibition on use of BP. The view of the NSRA was that provided the MV/ME maxima were not exceeded, then there was no safety reason why BP should not be used. This is what led to my original question about (a) how easy it was to measure MV from a BP firearm with a chrono (I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that BP might not give a clear reading), and (b) were there any recognised tables which related to BP.

    Although familiar with reloading tables I know nothing of BP. For all I know there may be a whole range of recipes for BP which give fast/slow burn etc, hence my asking the question on this forum where I know a great deal of expertise resides.

    No idea what specific model/make of firearm might be used. Perhaps my question should be simply "how straightforward is it for a BP shooter to assure the RO with confidence that the firearm he proposes to use will not exceed the range MV/ME limits"?

    From what you have said above, Tac, it looks as though the prohibition on the use of BP firearms might be unwarranted. It might, of course, just be the will of the committee not to have them there which is fair enough I suppose, but whatever the reason it should (IMHO) be made clear to shooters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by severnsider View Post
    Thanks, Tac - that's helpful. The restrictions at the range are as follows:


    The range is certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles up to .44 cal. only. The use of pistols and black powder firearms is prohibited.

    The maximum MV allowed on this range is 2145 fps & the maximum ME is 1495 ft.lbs


    We occasionally receive queries from shooters as to why pistols and BP are prohibited. That's a simple matter for pistols (the backstop/bullet catcher/sand bank is not of a suitable size) but I am less sure of the reason behind the prohibition on use of BP. The view of the NSRA was that provided the MV/ME maxima were not exceeded, then there was no safety reason why BP should not be used. This is what led to my original question about (a) how easy it was to measure MV from a BP firearm with a chrono (I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that BP might not give a clear reading), and (b) were there any recognised tables which related to BP.

    Although familiar with reloading tables I know nothing of BP. For all I know there may be a whole range of recipes for BP which give fast/slow burn etc, hence my asking the question on this forum where I know a great deal of expertise resides.

    No idea what specific model/make of firearm might be used. Perhaps my question should be simply "how straightforward is it for a BP shooter to assure the RO with confidence that the firearm he proposes to use will not exceed the range MV/ME limits"?

    From what you have said above, Tac, it looks as though the prohibition on the use of BP firearms might be unwarranted. It might, of course, just be the will of the committee not to have them there which is fair enough I suppose, but whatever the reason it should (IMHO) be made clear to shooters.
    The only definitive means to assure compliance is by use of a chronograph or ballistic pendulum.

    That said, I believe there is no way that a BP rifle will exceed the range MV limit of 2145 ft/sec.

    You must also comply with the calibre limit, so taking a .44 ball as 148 grains, to be within the max ME then MV must not exceed 2134 ft/sec, which seems decidedly unlikely with a BP rifle.

    Assuming a very generous 1500 ft/sec MV, then to make 1495 ft-lbs you would need a 300 grain projectile, which I suppose is possible with a long bullet (is there a .44 Whitworth?), but at that weight you would not achieve 1500 ft/sec.

    It does not seem likely that a BP rifle in .44 cal or smaller would exceed your range limits.

    I am also surprised by the statement "...certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles ..." Far from clear how you would recognise a pistol calibre BP rifle.

    Are you quoting from the pukka range safety certificate, or local range rules ?

    The few range safety certs I have seen address only pistol and/or rifle, MV, ME, and sometimes calibre limits. Not seen .22rf and pistol calibre rifles mentioned on a safety cert before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turnup View Post
    The only definitive means to assure compliance is by use of a chronograph or ballistic pendulum.

    That said, I believe there is no way that a BP rifle will exceed the range MV limit of 2145 ft/sec.

    [B]Make that ANY BP-propelled rifle as we know it, Jim. I've shot a .45cal RB over 120gr of FFFg that made an average of 1820fps - it was not pleasant. ]B]

    You must also comply with the calibre limit, so taking a .44 ball as 148 grains, to be within the max ME then MV must not exceed 2134 ft/sec, which seems decidedly unlikely with a BP rifle.

    Assuming a very generous 1500 ft/sec MV, then to make 1495 ft-lbs you would need a 300 grain projectile, which I suppose is possible with a long bullet (is there a .44 Whitworth?), but at that weight you would not achieve 1500 ft/sec.

    My Whitworth - a .451cal like most Whitworths - shot a 535gr hexagonal swaged Polisar bullet at a tad over 1300 fps using 90gr of FFg. THAT was for shooting at 1200 yards.

    It does not seem likely that a BP rifle in .44 cal or smaller would exceed your range limits.

    I am also surprised by the statement "...certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles ..." Far from clear how you would recognise a pistol calibre BP rifle.

    There ARE .36cal round ball and .45cal shooters - the long rifle kind - but the ball are actually smaller than those used in a handgun as they are shot with a patch. So, NO pistol-calibre BP rifles.

    Are you quoting from the pukka range safety certificate, or local range rules ?

    The few range safety certs I have seen address only pistol and/or rifle, MV, ME, and sometimes calibre limits. Not seen .22rf and pistol calibre rifles mentioned on a safety cert before.
    My guess is that the OP's range is run by another one of these clubs we often hear about here that has folks in charge who are set in their ways. To say any more would likely get me a ban.

    To set the OP's mind at rest, and bearing in mind that no matter what his club officials have to say, the laws of physics are dependably uniform across the known universe, here's a likely useful bit of information - it is NOT the powder, or 'mix' of powder [whatever that means] but muzzle velocity and weight of projectile that gives you muzzle energy. For example, shooting the common or garden 148gr .44cal ball from the average revolver at a typical 800fps [and that's going some], only gives you ca.210 ft lbs. Not really enought to blow the backstop into the next county.

    tac

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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    My guess is that the OP's range is run by another one of these clubs we often hear about here that has folks in charge who are set in their ways. To say any more would likely get me a ban.

    To set the OP's mind at rest, and bearing in mind that no matter what his club officials have to say, the laws of physics are dependably uniform across the known universe, here's a likely useful bit of information - it is NOT the powder, or 'mix' of powder [whatever that means] but muzzle velocity and weight of projectile that gives you muzzle energy. For example, shooting the common or garden 148gr .44cal ball from the average revolver at a typical 800fps [and that's going some], only gives you ca.210 ft lbs. Not really enought to blow the backstop into the next county.

    tac
    It could be that the folks in charge are just not particularly familiar with muzzle loading and are groping in the dark to some extent - perhaps the OP is trying to educate them. The only other reason I could think of for banning BP is that a shooting detail takes much longer and perhaps they cannot spare the range time? There are ways to overlap two or even three shooters on one lane, one shoots while the other(s) stand back and reload (but not cap).

    The "no pistols" rule I can understand as this probably comes down to safety angles, which are greater for pistols than for rifles.


    Thanks for the Whitworth info. I make it that your Whitworth is delivering a tad over 2000 ft/lbs at muzzle, which is impressively more than I would have guessed.

    To the OP: It is possible to exceed your range limits with a BP rifle, (but not easy), and so if that is the only issue, it has to be chrono or pendulum for certainty.
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    OK, here is some velocity/m/e data for the OP, based on literally millions of shots over a period of some on hundred and sixty years of BP documentation, from pages 679 - 681 of the Dixie Gun works data sheets -

    .58cal percussion RIFLE - 69gr of FFG [service load] - 510gr Minié ball - 963 fps - 1050 ft lbs

    I very much doubt that anybody in the OP's club will be shooting anything bigger than this, since nobody will be shooting any kind of a BP handgun, in spite of the far lower ultimate figures.

    In general, if a range is cleared for 12g solid/slug then ANY BP firearm available in THIS country, with the exception of a punt gun, will be safe to fire on that particular range.

    I earnestly suggest that the OP obtains the use of an experienced person, as far as BP shooting is concerned, to go and talk to the club officials.

    Turnup - the Whitworth is only doing 1300-ish as it exits the muzzle, but the BC of the bullet ensures a very high retention of velocity over long distances, as the infamous scientists-v-Sharps trials showed to the utter amazement of the 'experts' who predicted that the .405gr Sharps bullet would fall out of the sky at around 1300 yards when fired at 35 dgrees of elevation. In fact, it went almost 3600 yards......

    tac

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    Thanks for all your help.

    Tac, Turnup - you have both provided a great deal of helpful and common-sense information. Your comments reveal that both of you have read between the lines very astutely!
    I have enough to go on now, and believe that if necessary I can make a case for supporting certain BP activity if members wish it to be so. If a committee feels that BP is inappropriate for other reasons, then that's a different matter.
    Excellent advice from you all as usual. Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by severnsider View Post
    Tac, Turnup - you have both provided a great deal of helpful and common-sense information. Your comments reveal that both of you have read between the lines very astutely!
    I have enough to go on now, and believe that if necessary I can make a case for supporting certain BP activity if members wish it to be so. If a committee feels that BP is inappropriate for other reasons, then that's a different matter.
    Excellent advice from you all as usual. Thanks again.
    Come over one sunday and play with us - you'd be VERY welcome, so long as you bring muffins or some kind of English cake.

    tac

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    Quote Originally Posted by tacfoley View Post
    Come over one sunday and play with us - you'd be VERY welcome, so long as you bring muffins or some kind of English cake.

    tac
    English cake??!!
    [I]DesG
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesG View Post
    English cake??!!
    Yes, cakes of the kind made in England, lacking Welsh bara brith, a firm favourite with mrs tac [half-Welsh as she is]. Our local village store sells very fine cakes of all kinds made by a local lady, spunj of various types, frosted and/or glazed, chocolate, coffee and walnut and all that sort of thing. I call them English cakes because you don't find them in Papua New Guinea, Venezuela, Borneo or Finland, for instance.

    As far as I know, Scotland is renowned only for its oat-cakes - with the consistency of the part of an ironing board that you rest the iron on, but with rather less flavour, they are not welcome in our gun club except as targets.

    tac

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