Black Powder firearms and muzzle velocity measurement?

[loiner1965]

you can shoot over a chrono but it must be a distance away from the muzzle or you shoot throught a paper screen which is in front of the chrono...... i prefer the first option.
quickload as mv for bp loads

[severnsider]

you can shoot over a chrono but it must be a distance away from the muzzle or you shoot throught a paper screen which is in front of the chrono...... i prefer the first option.
quickload as mv for bp loads

Thanks for that Stephen. It would seem that both these options could be used by a prospective shooter to demonstrate to the RO that he's within limits then.

[kmahow2]

If you allow .357 carbines, then BP will not exceed their velocity.
Energy is unhelpful on ranges, as a .50 cal BP at full stoke will have a very high energy, but losses it very rapidly compared to a .308 for example.

[tacfoley]

I certainly have tables of muzzle energy, using simple formulae based on velocity and weight of bullet, but there are so many variables in shooting BP firearms that it makes the use of charge weights as a method of calculating velocities unuseable.

Barrel length is also a factor here, as is the type of firearm used.

A Brown Bess using a maximum of 120gr of FFg will certainly 'ring gongs' at the shorter ranges, but as has been pointed out, downrange it's a different story, although at 50m it is not going to make much difference. Our 50m range, for instance, permits the use of LEAD projectiles up to and including .75cal to be shot, providing that they do not exceed 1500 fps. No Brown Bess on earth is going to match a 12g Brenneke slug either for velocity or m/e, and that is permitted on our range.

To get 1500 fps out of a Black Bess you are going to use an improbably high load - always supposing that such a load would actually be burnt in the barrel.

No BP handgun on earth is going to make 1500 fps - the usual limit of velocity, but letting us know the calibre will let us figure out the m/e, too.

A lot more information is needed from the OP before I could try and offer any meaningful advice.

So, OP, come back to me with the following details, and I just might be able to help you.

1. Type of firearm[s] proposed.

2. Current restrictions on YOUR range.

To get you started, here is an easy-to-use m/e calculator - just fill out the blanks -

http://www.americanairrifle.com/convert.htm

tac

[severnsider]

I certainly have tables of muzzle energy, using simple formulae based on velocity and weight of bullet, but there are so many variables in shooting BP firearms that it makes the use of charge weights as a method of calculating velocities unuseable.

Barrel length is also a factor here, as is the type of firearm used.

A Brown Bess using a maximum of 120gr of FFg will certainly 'ring gongs' at the shorter ranges, but as has been pointed out, downrange it's a different story, although at 50m it is not going to make much difference. Our 50m range, for instance, permits the use of LEAD projectiles up to and including .75cal to be shot, providing that they do not exceed 1500 fps. No Brown Bess on earth is going to match a 12g Brenneke slug either for velocity or m/e, and that is permitted on our range.

To get 1500 fps out of a Black Bess you are going to use an improbably high load - always supposing that such a load would actually be burnt in the barrel.

No BP handgun on earth is going to make 1500 fps - the usual limit of velocity, but letting us know the calibre will let us figure out the m/e, too.

A lot more information is needed from the OP before I could try and offer any meaningful advice.

So, OP, come back to me with the following details, and I just might be able to help you.

1. Type of firearm[s] proposed.

2. Current restrictions on YOUR range.

To get you started, here is an easy-to-use m/e calculator - just fill out the blanks -

http://www.americanairrifle.com/convert.htm

tac

Thanks, Tac - that's helpful. The restrictions at the range are as follows:


The range is certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles up to .44 cal. only. The use of pistols and black powder firearms is prohibited.

The maximum MV allowed on this range is 2145 fps & the maximum ME is 1495 ft.lbs

We occasionally receive queries from shooters as to why pistols and BP are prohibited. That's a simple matter for pistols (the backstop/bullet catcher/sand bank is not of a suitable size) but I am less sure of the reason behind the prohibition on use of BP. The view of the NSRA was that provided the MV/ME maxima were not exceeded, then there was no safety reason why BP should not be used. This is what led to my original question about (a) how easy it was to measure MV from a BP firearm with a chrono (I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that BP might not give a clear reading), and (b) were there any recognised tables which related to BP.

Although familiar with reloading tables I know nothing of BP. For all I know there may be a whole range of recipes for BP which give fast/slow burn etc, hence my asking the question on this forum where I know a great deal of expertise resides.

No idea what specific model/make of firearm might be used. Perhaps my question should be simply "how straightforward is it for a BP shooter to assure the RO with confidence that the firearm he proposes to use will not exceed the range MV/ME limits"?

From what you have said above, Tac, it looks as though the prohibition on the use of BP firearms might be unwarranted. It might, of course, just be the will of the committee not to have them there which is fair enough I suppose, but whatever the reason it should (IMHO) be made clear to shooters.

[Turnup]

Thanks, Tac - that's helpful. The restrictions at the range are as follows:


The range is certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles up to .44 cal. only. The use of pistols and black powder firearms is prohibited.

The maximum MV allowed on this range is 2145 fps & the maximum ME is 1495 ft.lbs

We occasionally receive queries from shooters as to why pistols and BP are prohibited. That's a simple matter for pistols (the backstop/bullet catcher/sand bank is not of a suitable size) but I am less sure of the reason behind the prohibition on use of BP. The view of the NSRA was that provided the MV/ME maxima were not exceeded, then there was no safety reason why BP should not be used. This is what led to my original question about (a) how easy it was to measure MV from a BP firearm with a chrono (I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that BP might not give a clear reading), and (b) were there any recognised tables which related to BP.

Although familiar with reloading tables I know nothing of BP. For all I know there may be a whole range of recipes for BP which give fast/slow burn etc, hence my asking the question on this forum where I know a great deal of expertise resides.

No idea what specific model/make of firearm might be used. Perhaps my question should be simply "how straightforward is it for a BP shooter to assure the RO with confidence that the firearm he proposes to use will not exceed the range MV/ME limits"?

From what you have said above, Tac, it looks as though the prohibition on the use of BP firearms might be unwarranted. It might, of course, just be the will of the committee not to have them there which is fair enough I suppose, but whatever the reason it should (IMHO) be made clear to shooters.

The only definitive means to assure compliance is by use of a chronograph or ballistic pendulum.

That said, I believe there is no way that a BP rifle will exceed the range MV limit of 2145 ft/sec.

You must also comply with the calibre limit, so taking a .44 ball as 148 grains, to be within the max ME then MV must not exceed 2134 ft/sec, which seems decidedly unlikely with a BP rifle.

Assuming a very generous 1500 ft/sec MV, then to make 1495 ft-lbs you would need a 300 grain projectile, which I suppose is possible with a long bullet (is there a .44 Whitworth?), but at that weight you would not achieve 1500 ft/sec.

It does not seem likely that a BP rifle in .44 cal or smaller would exceed your range limits.

I am also surprised by the statement "...certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles ..." Far from clear how you would recognise a pistol calibre BP rifle.

Are you quoting from the pukka range safety certificate, or local range rules ?

The few range safety certs I have seen address only pistol and/or rifle, MV, ME, and sometimes calibre limits. Not seen .22rf and pistol calibre rifles mentioned on a safety cert before.

[tacfoley]

The only definitive means to assure compliance is by use of a chronograph or ballistic pendulum.

That said, I believe there is no way that a BP rifle will exceed the range MV limit of 2145 ft/sec.

[B]Make that ANY BP-propelled rifle as we know it, Jim. I've shot a .45cal RB over 120gr of FFFg that made an average of 1820fps - it was not pleasant. ]B]

You must also comply with the calibre limit, so taking a .44 ball as 148 grains, to be within the max ME then MV must not exceed 2134 ft/sec, which seems decidedly unlikely with a BP rifle.

Assuming a very generous 1500 ft/sec MV, then to make 1495 ft-lbs you would need a 300 grain projectile, which I suppose is possible with a long bullet (is there a .44 Whitworth?), but at that weight you would not achieve 1500 ft/sec.

My Whitworth - a .451cal like most Whitworths - shot a 535gr hexagonal swaged Polisar bullet at a tad over 1300 fps using 90gr of FFg. THAT was for shooting at 1200 yards.

It does not seem likely that a BP rifle in .44 cal or smaller would exceed your range limits.

I am also surprised by the statement "...certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles ..." Far from clear how you would recognise a pistol calibre BP rifle.

There ARE .36cal round ball and .45cal shooters - the long rifle kind - but the ball are actually smaller than those used in a handgun as they are shot with a patch. So, NO pistol-calibre BP rifles.

Are you quoting from the pukka range safety certificate, or local range rules ?

The few range safety certs I have seen address only pistol and/or rifle, MV, ME, and sometimes calibre limits. Not seen .22rf and pistol calibre rifles mentioned on a safety cert before.

My guess is that the OP's range is run by another one of these clubs we often hear about here that has folks in charge who are set in their ways. To say any more would likely get me a ban.

To set the OP's mind at rest, and bearing in mind that no matter what his club officials have to say, the laws of physics are dependably uniform across the known universe, here's a likely useful bit of information - it is NOT the powder, or 'mix' of powder [whatever that means] but muzzle velocity and weight of projectile that gives you muzzle energy. For example, shooting the common or garden 148gr .44cal ball from the average revolver at a typical 800fps [and that's going some], only gives you ca.210 ft lbs. Not really enought to blow the backstop into the next county.

tac

[severnsider]

If you allow .357 carbines, then BP will not exceed their velocity.
Energy is unhelpful on ranges, as a .50 cal BP at full stoke will have a very high energy, but losses it very rapidly compared to a .308 for example.

I believe that .357 carbine should be permitted (if we consider it to be a c/f pistol calibre) as the max. permitted is .44. The stipulations regarding MV/ME are in the range safety certificate, so MV will have to be measured to ensure that neither criterion is exceeded.

[tacfoley]

I believe that .357 carbine should be permitted (if we consider it to be a c/f pistol calibre) as the max. permitted is .44. The stipulations regarding MV/ME are in the range safety certificate, so MV will have to be measured to ensure that neither criterion is exceeded.

I'm reading this again.

There is no 'consider' about it. The .357 Magnum was designed from the get-go as a revolver cartridge back in 1935. Same goes for the .44 Remington Magnum revolver cartridge, designed by Elmer Keith back in 1956.

NO BP handgun on the planet will equal the velocity of a 158gr .357 Magnum calibre bullet. It is therefore obvious, or should be to anybody who can count up to, including and possibly past the number of fingers on one hand, that shooting the same round from a carbine will produce even higher m/v than from a pistol, due to the increased powder burn time in the longer barrel.

If the range is cleared for .44 Mag, then very few BP rifles will get near the velocity of THAT, even shooting the lighter than usual 180 or 200gr bullet - as you know, the 'standard' for the .44 Magnum revolver cartridge is a 240gr something or other. As pointed out already by two of us, a ball fired from a .44BP revolver only weighs in at ca. 148gr.

tac

PS - among the things that you haven't told us is whether or not the range is indoors or open to the skies.

[severnsider]

I'm reading this again.

There is no 'consider' about it. The .357 Magnum was designed from the get-go as a revolver cartridge back in 1935. Same goes for the .44 Remington Magnum revolver cartridge, designed by Elmer Keith back in 1956.

NO BP handgun on the planet will equal the velocity of a 158gr .357 Magnum calibre bullet. It is therefore obvious, or should be to anybody who can count up to, including and possibly past the number of fingers on one hand, that shooting the same round from a carbine will produce even higher m/v than from a pistol, due to the increased powder burn time in the longer barrel.

If the range is cleared for .44 Mag, then very few BP rifles will get near the velocity of THAT, even shooting the lighter than usual 180 or 200gr bullet - as you know, the 'standard' for the .44 Magnum revolver cartridge is a 240gr something or other. As pointed out already by two of us, a ball fired from a .44BP revolver only weighs in at ca. 148gr.

tac

PS - among the things that you haven't told us is whether or not the range is indoors or open to the skies.

Well, hello again! I'll hang onto the cream buns for a while, but thanks again for this latest info. It's a 50m outdoor range. I have PM'd you as I don't think it would be appropriate to identify the place on here

[tacfoley]

Well, hello again! I'll hang onto the cream buns for a while, but thanks again for this latest info. It's a 50m outdoor range. I have PM'd you as I don't think it would be appropriate to identify the place on here

Yo Severnsider - thanks for the PM, see my réponse[s].

I'm sure that between the three of of us [you, turnup and me] that we can sort this out.

Best

tac

PS - double-chocolate chip muffins and 8" individual LMP are more my style, TBH.