Black Powder firearms and muzzle velocity measurement?

[Turnup]

Thanks, Tac - that's helpful. The restrictions at the range are as follows:


The range is certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles up to .44 cal. only. The use of pistols and black powder firearms is prohibited.

The maximum MV allowed on this range is 2145 fps & the maximum ME is 1495 ft.lbs

We occasionally receive queries from shooters as to why pistols and BP are prohibited. That's a simple matter for pistols (the backstop/bullet catcher/sand bank is not of a suitable size) but I am less sure of the reason behind the prohibition on use of BP. The view of the NSRA was that provided the MV/ME maxima were not exceeded, then there was no safety reason why BP should not be used. This is what led to my original question about (a) how easy it was to measure MV from a BP firearm with a chrono (I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that BP might not give a clear reading), and (b) were there any recognised tables which related to BP.

Although familiar with reloading tables I know nothing of BP. For all I know there may be a whole range of recipes for BP which give fast/slow burn etc, hence my asking the question on this forum where I know a great deal of expertise resides.

No idea what specific model/make of firearm might be used. Perhaps my question should be simply "how straightforward is it for a BP shooter to assure the RO with confidence that the firearm he proposes to use will not exceed the range MV/ME limits"?

From what you have said above, Tac, it looks as though the prohibition on the use of BP firearms might be unwarranted. It might, of course, just be the will of the committee not to have them there which is fair enough I suppose, but whatever the reason it should (IMHO) be made clear to shooters.

The only definitive means to assure compliance is by use of a chronograph or ballistic pendulum.

That said, I believe there is no way that a BP rifle will exceed the range MV limit of 2145 ft/sec.

You must also comply with the calibre limit, so taking a .44 ball as 148 grains, to be within the max ME then MV must not exceed 2134 ft/sec, which seems decidedly unlikely with a BP rifle.

Assuming a very generous 1500 ft/sec MV, then to make 1495 ft-lbs you would need a 300 grain projectile, which I suppose is possible with a long bullet (is there a .44 Whitworth?), but at that weight you would not achieve 1500 ft/sec.

It does not seem likely that a BP rifle in .44 cal or smaller would exceed your range limits.

I am also surprised by the statement "...certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles ..." Far from clear how you would recognise a pistol calibre BP rifle.

Are you quoting from the pukka range safety certificate, or local range rules ?

The few range safety certs I have seen address only pistol and/or rifle, MV, ME, and sometimes calibre limits. Not seen .22rf and pistol calibre rifles mentioned on a safety cert before.

[tacfoley]

The only definitive means to assure compliance is by use of a chronograph or ballistic pendulum.

That said, I believe there is no way that a BP rifle will exceed the range MV limit of 2145 ft/sec.

[B]Make that ANY BP-propelled rifle as we know it, Jim. I've shot a .45cal RB over 120gr of FFFg that made an average of 1820fps - it was not pleasant. ]B]

You must also comply with the calibre limit, so taking a .44 ball as 148 grains, to be within the max ME then MV must not exceed 2134 ft/sec, which seems decidedly unlikely with a BP rifle.

Assuming a very generous 1500 ft/sec MV, then to make 1495 ft-lbs you would need a 300 grain projectile, which I suppose is possible with a long bullet (is there a .44 Whitworth?), but at that weight you would not achieve 1500 ft/sec.

My Whitworth - a .451cal like most Whitworths - shot a 535gr hexagonal swaged Polisar bullet at a tad over 1300 fps using 90gr of FFg. THAT was for shooting at 1200 yards.

It does not seem likely that a BP rifle in .44 cal or smaller would exceed your range limits.

I am also surprised by the statement "...certified for .22RF rifles and pistol calibre rifles ..." Far from clear how you would recognise a pistol calibre BP rifle.

There ARE .36cal round ball and .45cal shooters - the long rifle kind - but the ball are actually smaller than those used in a handgun as they are shot with a patch. So, NO pistol-calibre BP rifles.

Are you quoting from the pukka range safety certificate, or local range rules ?

The few range safety certs I have seen address only pistol and/or rifle, MV, ME, and sometimes calibre limits. Not seen .22rf and pistol calibre rifles mentioned on a safety cert before.

My guess is that the OP's range is run by another one of these clubs we often hear about here that has folks in charge who are set in their ways. To say any more would likely get me a ban.

To set the OP's mind at rest, and bearing in mind that no matter what his club officials have to say, the laws of physics are dependably uniform across the known universe, here's a likely useful bit of information - it is NOT the powder, or 'mix' of powder [whatever that means] but muzzle velocity and weight of projectile that gives you muzzle energy. For example, shooting the common or garden 148gr .44cal ball from the average revolver at a typical 800fps [and that's going some], only gives you ca.210 ft lbs. Not really enought to blow the backstop into the next county.

tac

[Turnup]

My guess is that the OP's range is run by another one of these clubs we often hear about here that has folks in charge who are set in their ways. To say any more would likely get me a ban.

To set the OP's mind at rest, and bearing in mind that no matter what his club officials have to say, the laws of physics are dependably uniform across the known universe, here's a likely useful bit of information - it is NOT the powder, or 'mix' of powder [whatever that means] but muzzle velocity and weight of projectile that gives you muzzle energy. For example, shooting the common or garden 148gr .44cal ball from the average revolver at a typical 800fps [and that's going some], only gives you ca.210 ft lbs. Not really enought to blow the backstop into the next county.

tac

It could be that the folks in charge are just not particularly familiar with muzzle loading and are groping in the dark to some extent - perhaps the OP is trying to educate them. The only other reason I could think of for banning BP is that a shooting detail takes much longer and perhaps they cannot spare the range time? There are ways to overlap two or even three shooters on one lane, one shoots while the other(s) stand back and reload (but not cap).

The "no pistols" rule I can understand as this probably comes down to safety angles, which are greater for pistols than for rifles.


Thanks for the Whitworth info. I make it that your Whitworth is delivering a tad over 2000 ft/lbs at muzzle, which is impressively more than I would have guessed.

To the OP: It is possible to exceed your range limits with a BP rifle, (but not easy), and so if that is the only issue, it has to be chrono or pendulum for certainty.

[tacfoley]

OK, here is some velocity/m/e data for the OP, based on literally millions of shots over a period of some on hundred and sixty years of BP documentation, from pages 679 - 681 of the Dixie Gun works data sheets -

.58cal percussion RIFLE - 69gr of FFG [service load] - 510gr Minié ball - 963 fps - 1050 ft lbs

I very much doubt that anybody in the OP's club will be shooting anything bigger than this, since nobody will be shooting any kind of a BP handgun, in spite of the far lower ultimate figures.

In general, if a range is cleared for 12g solid/slug then ANY BP firearm available in THIS country, with the exception of a punt gun, will be safe to fire on that particular range.

I earnestly suggest that the OP obtains the use of an experienced person, as far as BP shooting is concerned, to go and talk to the club officials.

Turnup - the Whitworth is only doing 1300-ish as it exits the muzzle, but the BC of the bullet ensures a very high retention of velocity over long distances, as the infamous scientists-v-Sharps trials showed to the utter amazement of the 'experts' who predicted that the .405gr Sharps bullet would fall out of the sky at around 1300 yards when fired at 35 dgrees of elevation. In fact, it went almost 3600 yards......

tac

[severnsider]

Tac, Turnup - you have both provided a great deal of helpful and common-sense information. Your comments reveal that both of you have read between the lines very astutely!
I have enough to go on now, and believe that if necessary I can make a case for supporting certain BP activity if members wish it to be so. If a committee feels that BP is inappropriate for other reasons, then that's a different matter.
Excellent advice from you all as usual. Thanks again.

[tacfoley]

Tac, Turnup - you have both provided a great deal of helpful and common-sense information. Your comments reveal that both of you have read between the lines very astutely!
I have enough to go on now, and believe that if necessary I can make a case for supporting certain BP activity if members wish it to be so. If a committee feels that BP is inappropriate for other reasons, then that's a different matter.
Excellent advice from you all as usual. Thanks again.

Come over one sunday and play with us - you'd be VERY welcome, so long as you bring muffins or some kind of English cake.

tac

[DesG]

Come over one sunday and play with us - you'd be VERY welcome, so long as you bring muffins or some kind of English cake.

tac

English cake??!!