legal requirements for reloading in uk? Irish reloaders need help!!

[ivanthehunter]

My government is trying to introduce laws that will only permit reloading under the most anal of circumstances.. reloading will only be allowed at approved ranges under supervision! in a cartridge filling room!!! Looks like only target shooters will be allowed reload

I'm intent on drafting a document that out lines the systems that other countries use to allow their guys reload from the comfort of their own homes aswell as setting out the reason why target shooters and hunters require reloading.

I'm looking for help sourcing the information related to the reloading legalities for Britain and Northern Ireland as my government thought it was being smart by detailing their take on UK firearm law as justification of a clamp down on CF Pistols(proposed ban), S\A CF rifles(proposed ban), S\A Shotguns cap > 3 cartridges(proposed ban) and on the sever restriction on the types of 22lr pistols allowed( only those allowed that are specifically designed for for Olympic competitions ££££3K??), all this is augmented by the most anal regime by which you could ever possibly reload under... Its enough to put you off reloading..??

This section is for reloading and that is all I'm going to discuss here but I just had to give a little background for those that aren't bothered with the link & even those that open it will soon get bogged down in the 64 pages of nonsense..

Not only am I looking for UK rules on reloading but I'm also looking for the rules surrounding reloading for Norway, Germany, Finland, Australia and Canada, as my government thought it clever to quote the rules in these countries in order to justify their tightening up of general firearms control.

This is what the said about UK in a public document.
See pages 47-49 of the link
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/2014.W....WG.Report.pdf



I'm going to have fight this with some well wrote documents and facts about each country..

You can see from the link that they have flagged countries where there has been mass shooting, at least to the best of my knowledge but I could be in error.
I'm going to show in my 'response letter' or 'letter of objection' that the countries shown as examples of firearm control all allow reloading in the comfort of ones own home.. This will surely resonate with the minister for justice and other politicians,,
Thanks for any help and if ye know about other countries laws re: reloading then share the wealth lads

regards Ivan MOD NOTE: If this thread needs moving then Im sorry for any error posting it here! I just looking for support and help to stop stupid rule ruining everything for years to come..

[mag44uk]

Pretty straightforward in UK mainland. You need to show fac to buy primers which I think is a very good idea.
If you are on Facebook ask to join long distance shooting in Europe, the guys on there will answer your questions.
Please make sure you get whatever you write proof read!!
Tony

[dprees]

To reload ammunition in Scotland, Wales and England, you need:
a) permission to possess the ammunition you intend to reload (granted as calibre and amount on Firearms Certificate (FAC)
b) Appropriate storage for ammunition you manufacture--once complete rounds have been assembled, they count against your ammunition limit for that calibre, and must be placed into your secure storage.

Components (apart from expanding bullets and primers) can be obtained license-free, but:
a) primers require a valid FAC to be produced, and the primer type you are seeking to buy must match an ammunition category listed on your FAC.
b) expanding bullets must be listed as on your FAC, and you must stay below your limit when buying them, even if the bullets are not assembled into rounds of ammunition. Effectively, expanding bullets are equivalent in law to assembled rounds--but other, more knowledgeable members may wish to qualify this, since I don't hunt, and therefore am not allowed expanding bullets.

No limits (apart from health and safety rules regarding maximum safe limits of explosives) exist for primers, powder, and non-expanding bullets. Some arcane storage rules can apply for the first two, however.

No current rules concerning where you can reload -- no compulsory courses; no requirement to do it under supervision, etc. Most reloaders work at home, away from sources of disturbance -- a strong reason in my view for NOT doing it in a club -- too many risks of interruption, leading to possibly unsafe rounds being assembled.

I wish you luck -- from what I can see, there is no true reason of public safety behind these proposed moves (is there ever - it's always a figleaf!), and if reason applied, you would win.

[ivanthehunter]

A very big thank you to dpress for your sterling answer!

I am many others intend to fight such proposals! Hopefully our shooters will band together and set aside their smaller differences in order to secure a brighter future for the sport.
Many seasoned shooter and hunters are proposing a grass roots approach that has lead to past victories secured.

However I will still need to find the official government documentation on British reloading and submit it as a genuine document of evidence showing that secondary legislation (Uk common law) permits such activities.

Thanks for such help.
To other I say " yes I will get what i write proof read"

[tacfoley]

Sir - I am the president of the Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland [www.vcrai.com], and it was me and couple of other fellow shooters in the RoI who put together the original submission to the DoJ back in 2008/9/10 to permit shooters in the Republic to share common ground with their fellow shooters in the North, and in the rest of Europe.

It got p!ssed on.

I suggest that you join in on the shooting section of boards.ie, where it is an almost daily subject of discussion, and where much information has been posted over the last few years from the mods there, Cass and Sparks, and that you also talk to John Kavanagh of Fingal Sports in Naul, Dublin, who will provide you with all the information that you seek with regard to [the lack of] reloading in the RoI.

For those who are not familiar with the restrictions in the RoI, only around forty shooters, all members of the Midlands National Shooting Centre at Tullaghmore, are permitted to reload under VERY controlled conditions and supervision. Since possession of components without a license to do so is a criminal offence in the RoI, those who take the chance and reload - and I have no doubt there are some - face very stiff penalties for doing so, penalties akin to and related to the RoI Prevention of Terrorism laws..

The revised Explosives Act of the Republic of Ireland, based on the original 1870's document, makes no mention of propellants as we understand them today - nitro-cellulose propellants had not been invented then - so all modern propellants are classified as explosives by the DoJ. We have been waiting at least five years for the revised version to be approved by the Daíl, but do not expect to see anything soon.

An explosives import license WAS granted, but only for a select number of shooters, so that they could reload and compete on a level footing in an international Creedmore competition that was held at MNSC a few years back. This produced an extreme amount of 'us and them' among the rest of the shooters in the RoI, a feeling of being cheated that has not gone away, and will not go away, until ALL Irish shooters can carry out reloading, just like the rest of the world.

AFAIK, none of the countries that you mention have any form of restrictions on reloading, certainly not Canada, Germany nor Finland from personal experiences. Only in the UK are you required to show your FAC in order to buy primers, although there are, of course, age restrictions on buying these items all over the EU as part of the common policy of purchasing live explosives, in which category primers are included. The UK is also the only country in Europe to differentiate between fragmenting/soft-point ammunition and FMJ ammunition, because of the so-called 'good reason' rationale adopted by the police forces here in accordance with Home Office policy. Northern Ireland has its own legislation with regard to firearms law, and DOES differ from the rest of the UK with regard to air guns of all kind. ANY airgun over one Joule is classed as a firearm, and needs an FAC. Also, purchase of reloading propellants in NI requires registration on the FAC, unlike here in UK or anywhere else in Europe. However, that apart, everything else is same as the rest of UK, apart from the fact that NI allows any kind of handgun to be owned, not just BP and the appalling long-barrelled revolvers and their ilk.

In view of the extreme involvement I have in the subject, and the strongly-held views that I share with the 99% of my fellow shooters over in the RoI who cannot reload, I don't intend to make any more contribution here, since it is a national disgrace that we are discussing, not one that anybody on this side of St George's Channel can help us with apart from offering you the information that has already been posted.

I'm happy to enter into a PM chat with you, providing that you are not operating here under a false premise for An Garda Sióchána or for the RoI DoJ.

As far as reloading is concerned here in the UK - it is a VERY simple matter.

NO permit or certificate of competence to allow the shooter to reload is required here in UK. If the firearm is on your FAC, then you are allowed to reload for it - using the correct bullet type, as previously mentioned.

The FAC that you have is ALL the permission that is necessary.

End of.

tac

[ivanthehunter]

Hi tac, firstly I will say that I used to be on boards.ie until the constant attention from super mod sparks seen me banned! He was over the top! Although he is a good guy generally speaking!

Secondly I know all to well about the situation pertaining to reloading in Ireland but thanks for the background story, I'm sure other readers will find it eye opening stuff..

Finally I'm doing my bit to piece together a synopsis of reloading freedoms/restriction from the different jurisdictions which, the department of justice selected as examples of good law abiding countries with restrictive laws! Yet no restrictions exist for reloading afaik..

.. It's a PIA this Irish nanny state and to flag up this disgraceful debacle is our duty! Remember that we are discussing this topic with our European fellow shooters and they have a right to know about heavy handed tactics being delt out in neighbouring countries.
This could happen to them too!

[tacfoley]

[QUOTE=ivanthehunter;6530607]Yet no restrictions exist for reloading afaik..[QUOTE]

Exactly so. None of the countries in your list have restrictions - if you can have the gun, then the reloading for it goes along with it. Simples.

tac

[ivanthehunter]

[QUOTE=tacfoley;6530649][QUOTE=ivanthehunter;6530607]Yet no restrictions exist for reloading afaik..

Exactly so. None of the countries in your list have restrictions - if you can have the gun, then the reloading for it goes along with it. Simples.

tac

There are however home office guidelines that I have seen quoted before in which, if memory serves correctly, limits are set out for the maximum amount of explosives a private reloader can have!

Germany has restrictions in the form of a compulsory course! You stated as much yourself!

So the issue is not just a straight forward, " no restrictions exist!", because they do and such restrictions, for example 'limits on explosives or propellant' demonstrate the allowances that normal citizens can obtain in the UK.
The Germany proficiency test demonstrates that when one is trained with a 1or 2day course then a person is fit to reload without "supervision"... this puts the Irish system in the relm of fools..

Also of importance is a very valid and common sense point which was posted by dpress in which he highlights the need for total concentration when preparing reloads! This flys in the face of a communal filling room! True hardcore reloaders have buckets of equipment and piles of brass and they might also annel their cartridges! Too much activity tbh and too easy to load a double charge or have a scales tampered with while one is away from ones desk or workstation!

As such, an aspiring Irish reloader will have to prepare his brass at home, de-prime it, clean it, lub it & resize it, trim it and check it at home! Then travel to the range and reload with the limited supply of propellet in stock or available on the range as he can't bring powder from another range/shop as it's not going to be allowed off site!! Reloaders will be severly limited in choice of powders and bullets!
He will also need a second press with which to seat bullets etc etc! It's just too much to contemplate but isnt that what the want!! What happens when a shooter has problem with neck tension or some other issue with the brass and has to scrap what he is doing! Pack up all his gear! Stick it in a locker and then drive home sort out his brass and then return to the reloading room at the range some day later and try an pick form where he left off!! This is taking the pizz big time!

The Irish dept of justice's proposals purport that reloading is done with the simplest of tools. Although it is possible to reload with a hammer and a 'Lee load all kit' it's not what avid reloaders would suggest.. Top class ammo requires top class reloading with all the bells and whistles!

The whole issue is quite upsetting tbh especially for those who stand to lose firearms after they spent thousands obtaining everything from alarms to court appeals and all in between, never mind the money spent on blasted guns or ammunition and then after all this the authorities try moving the goal post!

Adding insult to injury is this, the coup de grace, the nail in the old proverbial coffin, the end of reloading before it's even gained a propper foothold! It's all too much and leaves me bereft of any assemblance of faith in any area of authority!..

The more I think about it, the more I feel that the 'reloading pilot scheme' at midlands was a "carrot on a stick" to force Irish reloading down a certain road and as such it mucked up reloading possibilities for others that wanted normal reloading..

[ivanthehunter]

No restrictions in any country? Huh?

Well check out part 14 of this little fellow
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/r...211/index.html

Restrictions on amounts and conditions of storage and conditions of sale and minium ages and conditions of supervision etc etc.
These are undisputable facts with references that hold weight and add to moment to the Irish problem being over thrown or dismissed.

[Liam]

Good luck fighting this guys, if you can buy tobacco to roll your own cigarettes then you should be able to make your own ammunition for whichever firearms you have showing a FAC should be all you need for buying component parts. Here in the north we have to apply for an explosives licence to buy primers and powder, no big deal either as it only takes a couple of weeks and is free, the hardest part is finding someone who stocks what you want!

[ivanthehunter]

Good luck fighting this guys, if you can buy tobacco to roll your own cigarettes then you should be able to make your own ammunition for whichever firearms you have showing a FAC should be all you need for buying component parts. Here in the north we have to apply for an explosives licence to buy primers and powder, no big deal either as it only takes a couple of weeks and is free, the hardest part is finding someone who stocks what you want!

Thanks Liam.
Don't suppose you could send me a link to the paperwork required or perhaps it's just on the psni web site?

Back to the mainland for a moment:
Primers are controlled by
Section 35 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 addresses this issue by introducing controls on the purchase and sale of cap-type primers designed for use in metallic ammunition for a firearm, including empty cartridge cases incorporating such primers. Section 35 makes it an offence to sell these items unless the purchaser:

is a registered dealer;
sells by way of trade or business either primers or empty cartridge cases incorporating primers;
produces a certificate authorising him to possess a firearm of a relevant kind (ie a centre fire firearm and not a shotgun, an air weapon or a firearm chambered for rim-fire ammunition) and ammunition for such a firearm;
is a duly authorised Crown servant;
shows he is entitled under an enactment to possess a firearm or ammunition of a relevant kind without a certificate;
shows he has authority to purchase primers on behalf of another certificate holder; or
is authorised by regulations to purchase primers. This is a contingency provision and to date no regulations have been made.
Section 35 also makes it an offence to buy, or attempt to buy, primers unless the purchaser meets the same criteria. The definitions used in section 35 mean that it does not apply to blank ammunition, shotgun primers or to percussion caps for muzzle-loading firearms. The maximum penalty for an offence under this section is six months imprisonment or a £5,000 fine, or both.

[ivanthehunter]

Here is an interesting video showing dirrerances between Canada's and Norway's firearm laws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw7EQ...e_gdata_player

[tacfoley]

Canada -

Excerpt from Canada's Explosives' Act -

Explosives Act
The legislative scheme set out in the Explosives Act itself does not appear to concern firearms owners. However, there are numerous important provisions contained within the Explosives Regulations (C.R.C., c. 599).

Specifically, the maximum amount of ammunition that may be stored by an individual in a dwelling home is addressed, albeit indirectly, in the Explosives Regulations. Under the Regulations, “ammunition” is defined as a Class 6 explosive:

13. (1) “Ammunition” means an explosive of any class when enclosed in a case or contrivance or otherwise adapted or prepared so as to form a cartridge or charge for small arms, cannon, any other weapon, or for blasting, or so as to form any safety or other fuse for blasting or shells, or so as to form any tube for firing explosives, or so as to form a percussion cap, detonator, shell, torpedo, war rocket or other contrivance other than a firework.

The term “safety cartridge”, which is generally interchangeable with “modern ammunition” appears in the Definitions at section 2:

“safety cartridge” means a cartridge for any shotgun, gun, rifle, pistol, revolver and industrial gun the case of which can be extracted after firing and that is so closed as to prevent any explosion in one cartridge being communicated to another cartridge but does not include tracer, incendiary, high explosive or other similar military type cartridges;

The Regulations address the storage of ammunition in Part XI (“Storage and Handling of Ammunition and Fireworks”). According to s. 125 of the Regulations, the maximum amount of “explosives contained in ammunition” that can be stored is 225 kg.

The Regulations also address the issue of reloading (or hand loading) cartridges at s. 35 (Part IV):

35. Any person may, in respect of safety cartridges, load at a place other than a licensed factory if
(a) the loaded safety cartridges are not for sale or for any commercial, industrial or business use;
(b) the explosive used to load the cartridges is kept or stored in accordance with the provisions of Part XIII;
(c) not more than two kilograms of explosives, other than safety cartridges, are kept in the place;

Accordingly, reloading is perfectly legal as long as the storage and handling requirements of the Explosives Act (and Regulations) are followed.

The complete Explosives Act can be accessed at the Justice Canada site. The Explosives Regulations are available here - http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-17/

tac

[middaycowboy]

very interesting Ivan, I feel sorry for you, did not realise you had this problem over there, as to reloading in the UK everything said all ready is correct, but in Guernsey CI you cannot reload at home, take any calibre ammunition home it must all be left at the club, that was the only way they kept their pistols after the UK ban, keep your pistols but no ammo away from the range and must be purchased at the range.

[Liam]

The forms are likely to be somewhere on the psni website but Google found them quickly for me http://www.br-pc.co.uk/files/Powder-app.pdf