Reloading liability insurance ?

[GaleForceEight]

Your quote is of part of my reply that was about your answer to a question I didn't ask. I didn't ask about the legality about non-RFD entities selling ammunition, because I know the answer.

I asked a question that I don't know the answer to. Your original post would indicate that you do know the answer. I'd be greatly appreciative if you were willing to provide the answer.

Dogbert, you had Tac summed up with what you stated before (quoted below). He specialises in disparaging comments and negativity with an 'I know it all but I'm not going to tell you' attitude. All very sad when someone who professes to know so much goes out of his way to help so little.

Your long and and condescending reply fails singularly to answer my question. i.e. You have failed to identify the relevant piece of UK legislation that makes this an offence.

[Black Beard]

http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/RULESOFP.PDF

As far as I can tell, this calls up the 1868 act Schedule B, which doesn't say anything about proofing ammunition. Doh.

[tacfoley]

Your quote is of part of my reply that was about your answer to a question I didn't ask. I didn't ask about the legality about non-RFD entities selling ammunition, because I know the answer.

I asked a question that I don't know the answer to. Your original post would indicate that you do know the answer. I'd be greatly appreciative if you were willing to provide the answer.

Sir, both you and Mr galeforceight seem intent to be insulting and disparaging, having been given answers that you somehow misunderstand or to take offence to.

The UK government has signed up to the CIP and all the requirements that it entails regarding the proof of firearms and of ammunition, in internationally-accepted and binding Laws. Those laws, signed by some fourteen countries, makes it an offence within each country's legal framework, to sell to a member of the public ANY fiream that has not been proofed in compliance with the Law, and to manufacture for sale, any ammunition that does not comply with the standards laid down and accepted by those signaturees. These laws are now part of the United Kingdom's Firearms Act. How difficult is that to understand?

The internet is awash with details of the CIP and the UK Firearms Act, which is where I got MY information from, just as you could. How can that be misunderstood?

Here is just one excerpt from the definition of the CIP -

The Commission internationale permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives (Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms – commonly abbreviated as C.I.P. or CIP) is an international organisation which sets standards for safety testing of firearms. (The word portatives (portable) in the name refers to the fact the C.I.P. tests small arms almost exclusively; it is ordinarily omitted from the English translation of the name.) As of 2014, its members are the national governments of 14 countries, of which 12 are in Europe. The C.I.P. safeguards that all firearms and ammunition sold to civilian purchasers in member states are safe for the users.

To achieve this, all such firearms are first proof tested at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses. The same applies for cartridges; at regular intervals, cartridges are tested against the C.I.P. pressure specifications at the ammunition manufacturing plants and at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses.

And from the UK Firearms Act -

3 Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.E+W+S(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—
(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun; F4. . .
(b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun, [F5or
(c)sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale or transfer or has such a weapon in his possession for sale or transfer,]
without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer.

I'm sorry that the answer requires pedantry and long-windedness, and that somehow causes you upset and offence. I'll just reiterate my previous comment. If you don't like my answer, go find one that is more in keeping with your requirements.

tac

[Parabuteo]

One of our lads had his F class rifle blown to bits some time back.

Miraculously he was shaken, cuts and minor burns but otherwise ok (probably soiled his armour). it all went downwards.

his ammo was loaded by a "legend". They never got to the bottom of it but inadvertent use of a much faster powder than it should have been was thought likely.

If its not factory/proved of a certain standard or you did not load it, do yourself a favour and avoid

[angrybear]

:-)

I didn't ask whether or not an RFD is required to sell ammunition. It isn't. It is only required if the sale is by way of trade or business.

A non-RFD person does not commit an offense under the firearms acts if he sells ammunition to a person authorised to purchase it, so long as is not by way of trade or business.


What I asked, in what I thought was a fairly unambiguous question was could you or one of the others stating that CIP proof testing is mandatory for ammunition offered for sale identify the relevant legislation.

Your long and and condescending reply fails singularly to answer my question. i.e. You have failed to identify the relevant piece of UK legislation that makes this an offence.

So I will repeat the question, can you identify the Statute that makes the sale of ammunition that has not been proof tested illegal within the UK?

I think the bit that's being missed is that if you do something for monetary benefit then, legally speaking, it is no longer a hobby but becomes classed as business,

so in order to make "loads to be sold" your friend would need to be an RFD & the loads would then be commercial & need to be tested, & I think that's what Tac was trying to get across.

[GaleForceEight]

Tac, the bit that you have missed is actually answering the question that has been asked in favour of posting a quote from the legislation that the OP can find just as easily as you can. I bet it took you longer than the 0.0000015 seconds or whatever your sarcastic and condescending reply suggested though .

When you follow the loading tables published by manufacturers for their bullets they have done this proof testing with those loads already. If the OP follows those load tables without deviation those loads have already been tested and approved or the manufacturers would not be good to publish them. Following a random load placed on a forum without the backup of a manufacturers manual could prove fatal as there is no guarantees and as an untested load it would therefore need testing.

When I make a repair part to specifications laid down by Boeing in order to repair the aircraft I am relying on the testing and certification that they have done when they wrote the structural repair manual. So long as I do not go outside the tolerances or deviate from the procedures in the manual using the materials they specify I do not need to reinvent the wheel and go through all the same testing procedures they went through to get the original design approvals as their data is already tested and approved by the relevant authorities.

So.... If Dogbert has his RFD and reloads within the parameters of loads that have already been proof tested /certified by the manufacturers the CIP testing has already been done for those loads whether they have been done in Bucharest, Birmingham, or Bognor Regis. Would you please direct him to the legislation that says as an independent retailer he is required to get seperate proof testing done for the same load recipe as has already been tested and approved at the behest of the bullet manufacturers for publication in their data manuals?

Picking through what you long cut and paste the only relevant piece of information of use in regards to Dogbert's question is the requirement to send periodic samples for retesting which would be part of a quality control process. This in itself implies that if he were to follow the published data of the manufacturers he would not need to do the initial large sample but would be required to send regular samples to ensure load and pressure development consistency.

Dogbert, you are probably better off contacting the proving house as they will actually be able to give you the answers you seek rather than someone blagging it with a blanket cut and paste on a forum.

[pothunter]

Galeforce.

Since when have the authors of reloading handbooks sent their loads for proofing??
Tested in house in actual rifles, or more commonly Universal receivers to check pressures generated, certainly, but sent to a proof house for checking under CIP, don't think so.

[taz2]

It's quite simple. You cannot, as a rule, manufacture ammunition in a calibre you do not have authority to hold. That means, in effect, that you need a RFD, if you wish to provide a product range.
It is illegal ,BY WAY OF TRADE, to sell unproved ammunition., whether or not you are a RFD.
if you're selling it, it is BY WAY OF TRADE.
You can protest your integrity in reloading techniques as much as you like, but that's no substitute for a proper safety test.
As to the powder/bullet makers data, whereabouts in the range of loads presented do you pitch your 'products' ? That data is a guideline for reloading SAFELY, not a fail safe recipe for you to make and sell reloads. In the small print it will say somewhere that the data provider takes no responsibility for safe use of that data.
As a private individual, or RFD, IT IS ILLEGAL TO SELL UNPROVED FIREARMS OR AMMUNITION, what's difficult to grasp with that?

[mag44uk]

All very interesting.
But has anyone got hands on experience to manufacture and sell it?
One of my clubs would benefit from selling 357 target loads.
Tony

[tacfoley]

It's quite simple. You cannot, as a rule, manufacture ammunition in a calibre you do not have authority to hold. That means, in effect, that you need a RFD, if you wish to provide a product range.
It is illegal ,BY WAY OF TRADE, to sell unproved ammunition., whether or not you are a RFD.
if you're selling it, it is BY WAY OF TRADE.
You can protest your integrity in reloading techniques as much as you like, but that's no substitute for a proper safety test.
As to the powder/bullet makers data, whereabouts in the range of loads presented do you pitch your 'products' ? That data is a guideline for reloading SAFELY, not a fail safe recipe for you to make and sell reloads. In the small print it will say somewhere that the data provider takes no responsibility for safe use of that data.
As a private individual, or RFD, IT IS ILLEGAL TO SELL UNPROVED FIREARMS OR AMMUNITION, what's difficult to grasp with that?

You, Sir, have reinforced my points that have seemed so difficult to grasp for some. Thanks for that.

tac

[tacfoley]

Galeforce.

Since when have the authors of reloading handbooks sent their loads for proofing??
Tested in house in actual rifles, or more commonly Universal receivers to check pressures generated, certainly, but sent to a proof house for checking under CIP, don't think so.

The United States of America, which publishes most of the books on reloading, is NOT a signaturee to the CIP. It does, however, have its own set of manufacturing compliancy standards in the form of the SAAMI regulations.

Finland [Vihtavuori Oy] is a member of the CIP, and is fully compliant with the CIP regulations, as is Sweden [Norma]. Vihtavuori is also fully compliant with the US SAAMI standards, and will always select the lower figures for documentation purposes in the public domain. Vihtavuori products are also fully compliant with STANAG 4170 - the NATO standard on explosives and propellants.

Any CIP-compliant ammunition manufacturing company will make ammunition to the same standards, no matter in what country they operate. If in doubt, please give Mr David Little of Kynamco [world-famous and internationally regarded makers of African-calibre ammunition for many years] and ask him. Please give him my regards when you talk to him - he is an astoundingly fine gentleman as well as an astute businessman of whom this country is rightfully proud. He stands behind every round he makes and has made - all in accordance with the CIP, naturally.

Or talk to Eley...

Please note, however, that the SAAMI documentation, unlike that of the CIP, is not legally binding, but is a voluntary standard of manufacturing ammunition in the USA. The documentation - that I have in full - is titled -

'American National Standard - Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centrefire Pistol and Revolver ammunition for the use of Commercial Manufacturers.

The same title applies to 'Rimfire Sporting Ammunition' and 'Centrefire Rifle Ammunition'.

Note too that in the United States, the chances of successful legal action being taken against manufacturers of below standard ammunition, which causes injury to the shooter, is very high, and the awards to those who may have been injured by faulty ammunition could easily reach into the tens of millions of dollars.

Note that SAAMI is actually part of the American National Standards Institute - an organisation similar to the British Standards Institute and the German DIN.

So basically, if you make ammunition for sale and are not part of any of this, and anything goes wrong, the sh!t that you will find yourself in goes way over your head, from a legal point of view and from a litiginous point of view.

I really don't have any more to say on the subject.

tac

[sarge4318]

not being funny but i take more care with the making of my loads than any ammo you could buy of the shelf.every case inspected visually and length checked with verniers,every powder measure checked to a tolerance of +/- .1 of a gr.last but not least overall length checked on every round.being an engineer by trade everything i make is as good as i can make it

That's great that you take such care with your homeloads, I can only applaud you for that, but can you guarantee that it will work in my rifle, one for which you don't know the exact chamber dimensions? Could I use them in my tight match chambered rifle and my hunting rifle with the short lead?

This is the problem, your loads are perfect for you and your rifle(s), they may not be as perfect for someone else. If you do give some of your very consistent loads to another for use in another firearm would you be insured if something went wrong and damage or injury resulted?

[fred2892]

Trust me if you sell your reloaded ammo and plod finds out, you will be nicked. There is an RFD in our club who was arrested for just that. It turns out that someone had taken a dislike to him and passed the word on to plod. Luckily he wasnt doing anything so daft as selling reloaded ammo, just cast bullets. The bloke who stitched him up had overheard him taking an order and overheard the word bullets and took it to mean loaded ammunition.

Did you know it is still also illegal to pull ammunition even though anyone who reloads has a bullet puller.
Page 68 here
http://www.official-documents.gov.uk.../0074/0074.pdf

[acmsarh]

That report was from 1991-92, The Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations 2005. Section 9 Allows-The making or unmaking of small arms ammunition, or the preparation of cartridges for use with firearms which are to be used at historical re-enactment events, where the total quantity of primer and propellant used at any one time does not exceed 2 kilograms and, for these purposes, the quantity of propellant used includes propellant removed from cartridges.

[Parabuteo]

All very interesting.
But has anyone got hands on experience to manufacture and sell it?
One of my clubs would benefit from selling 357 target loads.
Tony

There is a TR club at Bisley that do.

I remember watching Steve East and a colleague doing extensive range tests before the loads were sent off for proofing.

They were going to load in house for their club using TR140. How they stand with the calibration of their gear and inspection of brass etc, and changes in component batches I have no idea.