Reloading liability insurance ?

[Turnup]

Galeforce.

Since when have the authors of reloading handbooks sent their loads for proofing??
Tested in house in actual rifles, or more commonly Universal receivers to check pressures generated, certainly, but sent to a proof house for checking under CIP, don't think so.

Correct, there would be no point since such testing cannot prove that someone else's cases, someone else's primers, someone else's bullets and most of all someone else's production process will be in spec and safe. These things are NOT proven and cannot be assumed to be in proof until verified.

[acmsarh]

I used to reload 5000 at a time for my club when we still had handgun's and then I would set a randomly picked batch to the Birmingham proof house out of that 5000 , Also I was an RFD at that time.

[tacfoley]

I used to reload 5000 at a time for my club when we still had handgun's and then I would set a randomly picked batch to the Birmingham proof house out of that 5000 , Also I was an RFD at that time.

Thanks for that - sums it up.

tac

[cookoff013]

Birmingham are good guys to deal with.

I make, design, and experiment with loads. Everything gets tested.

I avoid giving or distribution of homeloads. Only did it once when another reloader helped as well.

I will never ever give out any ammo ever.

[Dogbert]

Sir, both you and Mr galeforceight seem intent to be insulting and disparaging, having been given answers that you somehow misunderstand or to take offence to.

The UK government has signed up to the CIP and all the requirements that it entails regarding the proof of firearms and of ammunition, in internationally-accepted and binding Laws. Those laws, signed by some fourteen countries, makes it an offence within each country's legal framework, to sell to a member of the public ANY fiream that has not been proofed in compliance with the Law, and to manufacture for sale, any ammunition that does not comply with the standards laid down and accepted by those signaturees. These laws are now part of the United Kingdom's Firearms Act. How difficult is that to understand?

The internet is awash with details of the CIP and the UK Firearms Act, which is where I got MY information from, just as you could. How can that be misunderstood?

Here is just one excerpt from the definition of the CIP -

The Commission internationale permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives (Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms – commonly abbreviated as C.I.P. or CIP) is an international organisation which sets standards for safety testing of firearms. (The word portatives (portable) in the name refers to the fact the C.I.P. tests small arms almost exclusively; it is ordinarily omitted from the English translation of the name.) As of 2014, its members are the national governments of 14 countries, of which 12 are in Europe. The C.I.P. safeguards that all firearms and ammunition sold to civilian purchasers in member states are safe for the users.

To achieve this, all such firearms are first proof tested at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses. The same applies for cartridges; at regular intervals, cartridges are tested against the C.I.P. pressure specifications at the ammunition manufacturing plants and at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses.

And from the UK Firearms Act -

3 Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.E+W+S(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—
(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun; F4. . .
(b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun, [F5or
(c)sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale or transfer or has such a weapon in his possession for sale or transfer,]
without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer.

I'm sorry that the answer requires pedantry and long-windedness, and that somehow causes you upset and offence. I'll just reiterate my previous comment. If you don't like my answer, go find one that is more in keeping with your requirements.

tac

Unfortunately there isn't an answer not to like.

Another long winded post that fails to answer the question.

If selling ammunition that has not been proofed were an offense there would be a law against it. If that law existed, you would be able to quote the act and the appropriate paragraph. You haven't.

I'm not insulting or disparaging, I'm stating simple unambiguous facts, nothing you've written has answered the question.

[Dogbert]

I think the bit that's being missed is that if you do something for monetary benefit then, legally speaking, it is no longer a hobby but becomes classed as business,

so in order to make "loads to be sold" your friend would need to be an RFD & the loads would then be commercial & need to be tested, & I think that's what Tac was trying to get across.

If you sell ammunition by way of trade or business you need to registered as an RFD.

If you sell ammunition otherwise you do not. Most shooting clubs sell ammunition to their members, most only have a Club FAC, not an RFD.

[Dogbert]

Dogbert, you are probably better off contacting the proving house as they will actually be able to give you the answers you seek rather than someone blagging it with a blanket cut and paste on a forum.

A few years ago I did just that. I spoke to the Proof Master at both Birmingham and London. I got very evasive answers. Neither would say that ammunition proof was mandatory nor would they admit that is wasn't.

I am convinced that there is no UK requirement to proof ammunition. However, it is very hard to prove a negative. Which is why I've asked those that claim to know that it is mandatory to provide the appropriate legislation (whilst of course being confident that they won't be able to).

I've search the legislation too and found nothing that makes the sale of ammunition without proof unlawful.

[Dogbert]

if you're selling it, it is BY WAY OF TRADE.

Nope. It's illegal to sell firearms by "by way of trade or business" without an RFD too. We don't all get arrested every time we sell a firearm.

You need to be doing it specifically to make a profit. So if you sold a gun from your collection because you'd got bored with it, but made a profit in the process, that is fine. If however you buy a gun specifically to sell on and make a profit, that would require an RFD.

[taz2]

Nope. It's illegal to sell firearms by "by way of trade or business" without an RFD too. We don't all get arrested every time we sell a firearm.

You need to be doing it specifically to make a profit. So if you sold a gun from your collection because you'd got bored with it, but made a profit in the process, that is fine. If however you buy a gun specifically to sell on and make a profit, that would require an RFD.

Why do you persist in this,incorrect, belief that you can sell unproved ammunition?
It is just as illegal to sell it as it is to sell an unproved firearm. WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE A RFD.

By making ammunition specifically to sell, it becomes by way of trade. If can't or don't wish to make a profit, that's your problem.

[tacfoley]

A few years ago I did just that. I spoke to the Proof Master at both Birmingham and London. I got very evasive answers. Neither would say that ammunition proof was mandatory nor would they admit that is wasn't.

I am convinced that there is no UK requirement to proof ammunition. However, it is very hard to prove a negative. Which is why I've asked those that claim to know that it is mandatory to provide the appropriate legislation (whilst of course being confident that they won't be able to).

I've search the legislation too and found nothing that makes the sale of ammunition without proof unlawful.

In that case, Sir, I request that YOU make some ammunition and sell it.

Then tell us what happens.

Gun clubs do NOT make ammunition to sell. The person who DID, told us that he was and RFD, and that he submitted batches of the stuff for testing.

I'm not sure what particular part of the Firearms Act that I quoted went over you head, but here it is again, in case you missed it the first time -

...from the UK Firearms Act -

3 Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.E+W+S(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—
(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun; F4. . .

Enough.

tac

[tacfoley]

Why do you persist in this,incorrect, belief that you can sell unproved ammunition?
It is just as illegal to sell it as it is to sell an unproved firearm. WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE A RFD.

By making ammunition specifically to sell, it becomes by way of trade. If can't or don't wish to make a profit, that's your problem.

Enuff, taz, me old, dogbert is not in a listening mode, and has never been.

We are both wasting valuable electrons here.

tac

[Dogbert]

Why do you persist in this,incorrect, belief that you can sell unproved ammunition?

Because, there is no law against it.

How can you be so certain in something you cannot prove?

Just by saying something in an adamant way does not make it true. Can you prove you position? Post the relevant Act of Parliament if you can.

[Dogbert]

In that case, Sir, I request that YOU make some ammunition and sell it.

Then tell us what happens.

Gun clubs do NOT make ammunition to sell. The person who DID, told us that he was and RFD, and that he submitted batches of the stuff for testing.

I'm not sure what particular part of the Firearms Act that I quoted went over you head, but here it is again, in case you missed it the first time -

...from the UK Firearms Act -

3 Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.E+W+S(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—
(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun; F4. . .

Enough.

tac

You appear not to be able reason in a logical way. By saying one true thing does not mean everything you say is true.

You are miss quoting and muddling up what I have written. The only reason I wrote about gun clubs was to give an example of the sale of ammunition by a non RFD. This was nothing to do manufacture or proof.

Why are you reposting the same bit of the firearms act? Nobody is disagreeing with that.

Quote the law that makes it illegal to sell ammunition without proof, if you can. That's all I ask. No more invective or your misinformed opinions, just the one fact that so far you have failed to supply. Bet you can't!

[Dogbert]

Enuff, taz, me old, dogbert is not in a listening mode, and has never been.

We are both wasting valuable electrons here.

tac

Well, yes of course you are both waisting valuable electrons here; by continually posting misinformation.

I most definitely am in listening mode! I keep listening for one of you experts to state the UK Act of Parliament that makes the sale of ammunition without proof unlawful.

I am still waiting.

[tacfoley]

Well, yes of course you are both waisting valuable electrons here; by continually posting misinformation.

I most definitely am in listening mode! I keep listening for one of you experts to state the UK Act of Parliament that makes the sale of ammunition without proof unlawful.

I am still waiting.

This is the last time I'll put this information here.

The Firearms Act IS enforceable in Law. Breaking any of the provisions of the Firearms Act IS illegal.

That's it.

tac