Reloading liability insurance ?

[Dogbert]

What precisely is your point, there is such a thing as common law offences which are not laid down by statute but are still enforceable by law. I think if you pop round next door and strangle your neighbour you will be convicted of the common law crime of murder. Why not just make up a batch of ammo and flog it and you will no doubt find out directly from the judge precisely what offence you have committed. Much easier than asking questions on the internet and getting answers you don't like.

My point is that people who don't know what they are talking about should not be posting legal advice on internet forums. Particularly useful ones like this one.

i.e. Several posters have stated that the proof of ammunition is mandatory. Well it isn't.

Yes, common law exists, however it is still recorded in court rulings. I can guarantee that there is no Common Law applicable to the proof of ammunition.

[Fenrir.2]

Is it your contention that there is nothing illegal about selling unproofed home loads? Do you know what you are talking about? Are you more highly qualified than other posters?

[tacfoley]

Dogbert, I've had enough of you and your circular arguments that lead nowhere.

You have been told a number of times the hows and whys of selling ammunition legally in the UK, but you seem unable to accept that the Firearms Act, that has, as part of it, the European CIP requirements built into it because the UK is a signaturee, states that you cannot sell unproofed ammunition, because the CIP rules so.

Please stop farting around, and do the thread a favour - call your FEO [you DO know what a FEO is, right?] and ask him about making and selling your own ammunition.

Now please go back in your section of oblivion and leave the rest of us get on with our short and usually worthless little lives. I feel that I've wasted quite enough of what days remain to me pandering to you and your blocked mind.

tac

[acmsarh]

On the 1st march 1979 the UK applied for accession to the convention and it came into force 1st march 1980 this convention was Commission Internationale Permanete (CIP) ,This was presented to parliament in the same year for acceptance and is the set of standards the proof houses must work to http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/docs/pdf/1980/TS0084.pdf.
You will not find written in a UK law act as it does not have to be.
You cannot sell reloads is already incorporated in CIP rules and regulations and is part of an eu law by treaty that the signature countries (One of which we wanted to sign up to) have to abide by.

[Fenrir.2]

My point is that people who don't know what they are talking about should not be posting legal advice on internet forums. Particularly useful ones like this one.

Indeed.

[Dogbert]

Is it your contention that there is nothing illegal about selling unproofed home loads? Do you know what you are talking about? Are you more highly qualified than other posters?

The sale of unproved home loads is no different from the sale of any other ammunition. So long as the sale is made in accordance with the Firearms Act, then you are not committing an offense.

There is no mandatory requirement to proof ammunition.

Do I know what I'm talking about? Good question, it is much harder to prove something is not illegal than it is to prove that something is illegal. This is why I've been repeatedly asking the self styled experts to quote the law that makes ammunition proof mandatory - if it were, it would be trivial to produce it. Of course they can't for the simple reason that no such law exists in the UK.

If you are really interested I can list the UK Acts of Parliament and Statutory Instruments that apply to proof and you can read them yourself to see that there is no provision calling for the proof of ammunition.

[Dogbert]

Dogbert, I've had enough of you and your circular arguments that lead nowhere.

You have been told a number of times the hows and whys of selling ammunition legally in the UK, but you seem unable to accept that the Firearms Act, that has, as part of it, the European CIP requirements built into it because the UK is a signaturee, states that you cannot sell unproofed ammunition, because the CIP rules so.

Please stop farting around, and do the thread a favour - call your FEO [you DO know what a FEO is, right?] and ask him about making and selling your own ammunition.

Now please go back in your section of oblivion and leave the rest of us get on with our short and usually worthless little lives. I feel that I've wasted quite enough of what days remain to me pandering to you and your blocked mind.

tac

You do seem to have a serious comprehension problem.

I have not been making any arguments let alone circular ones - this is much more your domain. I have however repeatedly asked you to back up your assertion with the applicable Law. You have however failed to do so.

Like much of what you have posted so far, the above is nonsense, the Firearms act does not have anything to do with the CIP or proof built into it.

Why would I want to talk to an FEO. He's not the one writing rubbish on this forum, you are.

My mind, unlike yours, remains open.

[Dogbert]

On the 1st march 1979 the UK applied for accession to the convention and it came into force 1st march 1980 this convention was Commission Internationale Permanete (CIP) ,This was presented to parliament in the same year for acceptance and is the set of standards the proof houses must work to http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/docs/pdf/1980/TS0084.pdf.
You will not find written in a UK law act as it does not have to be.
You cannot sell reloads is already incorporated in CIP rules and regulations and is part of an eu law by treaty that the signature countries (One of which we wanted to sign up to) have to abide by.

For something to be Law in the UK, it must be enacted in UK Legislation.

[mjoseph]

Would everyone please just ignore Dogbert? He's doing my head in.


Cheers,


Mark.

[taz2]

The sale of unproved home loads is no different from the sale of any other ammunition. So long as the sale is made in accordance with the Firearms Act, then you are not committing an offense.

There is no mandatory requirement to proof ammunition.

Do I know what I'm talking about? Good question, it is much harder to prove something is not illegal than it is to prove that something is illegal. This is why I've been repeatedly asking the self styled experts to quote the law that makes ammunition proof mandatory - if it were, it would be trivial to produce it. Of course they can't for the simple reason that no such law exists in the UK.

If you are really interested I can list the UK Acts of Parliament and Statutory Instruments that apply to proof and you can read them yourself to see that there is no provision calling for the proof of ammunition.

The UK is a signaturee to the CIP. If you could get your head out of your arse long enough to do a bit of basic research into the subject, it clearly states in several places that: it IS illegal to sell home loaded ammunition, and that ALL commercially produced ammunition must reach proof standards.
We haven't invented this just to piss you off, it's fact and law for CIP members, and we ARE ONE.

[Fenrir.2]

The sale of unproved home loads is no different from the sale of any other ammunition. So long as the sale is made in accordance with the Firearms Act, then you are not committing an offense.

There is no mandatory requirement to proof ammunition.

Do I know what I'm talking about? Good question, it is much harder to prove something is not illegal than it is to prove that something is illegal. This is why I've been repeatedly asking the self styled experts to quote the law that makes ammunition proof mandatory - if it were, it would be trivial to produce it. Of course they can't for the simple reason that no such law exists in the UK.

If you are really interested I can list the UK Acts of Parliament and Statutory Instruments that apply to proof and you can read them yourself to see that there is no provision calling for the proof of ammunition.

So basically you have no expertise, nothing except an enormous chip on your shoulder when caught out to be talking a complete load of bollocks. If you are so sure of your position there is one way to demonstrate it and make up some rounds and sell them. But you won't because you know you are wrong as does everybody else but you are too self importantly deluded to admit your mistake.

[Dalua]

So basically you have no expertise, nothing except an enormous chip on your shoulder when caught out to be talking a complete load of bollocks.

Does saying that an act is unlawful without being able to produce evidence that it actually is not count as 'talking a complete load of bollocks'?

If you are so sure of your position there is one way to demonstrate it and make up some rounds and sell them.

As long as it isn't by way of trade or business, what possible objection could there be to his doing that?

But you won't because you know you are wrong as does everybody else but you are too self importantly deluded to admit your mistake.

More likely, because no-one in their right mind would buy them. But that ain't the point, is it?

[tacfoley]

As long as it isn't by way of trade or business, what possible objection could there be to his doing that?

Ah, IF he is selling them, that that IS 'by way of trade or business' and the seller is bound by the Sales of Goods Acts in addition to the CIP rules.

Look up the definition of the word 'sell'.

tac

[Dalua]

Ah, IF he is selling them, that that IS 'by way of trade or business' and the seller is bound by the Sales of Goods Acts in addition to the CIP rules.

Look up the definition of the word 'sell'.

tac

I think we've already established that FAC-holders can buy and sell things as permitted by their FAC, and that this does not mean of itself that it is 'by way of trade or business'.
For example, I got rid of a .243 rifle, and ammunition for it. I sold the ammuntion, but did not need a RFD ticket as the sale was not 'by way of trade or business'. If it had been 'by way of trade or business' I would have needed a RFD ticket. Thus we see that not every sale is by definition 'by way of trade or business', Tac's dictionary notwithstanding

I load ammuntion for a relative. Being all heart, I take no payment for it.
Are you seriously suggesting that if I accepted reinbursement of component costs, and perhaps a little for my trouble, I would be in breach of some law?
I imagine that it all depends on scale, but a couple of hundred rounds per annum at no significant margin does not seem to me a something that could be categorised as 'by way of trade or business'.

Please note, I'm not suggesting that it is a good idea to either buy or sell someone's handloads. In fact in general I'd suggest quite the opposite: but that doesn't mean it's unlawful.

[tacfoley]

I think we've already established that FAC-holders can buy and sell things as permitted by their FAC, and that this does not mean of itself that it is 'by way of trade or business'.
For example, I got rid of a .243 rifle, and ammunition for it. I sold the ammuntion, but did not need a RFD ticket as the sale was not 'by way of trade or business'. If it had been 'by way of trade or business' I would have needed a RFD ticket. Thus we see that not every sale is by definition 'by way of trade or business', Tac's dictionary notwithstanding

I load ammuntion for a relative. Being all heart, I take no payment for it.
Are you seriously suggesting that if I accepted reinbursement of component costs, and perhaps a little for my trouble, I would be in breach of some law?
I imagine that it all depends on scale, but a couple of hundred rounds per annum at no significant margin does not seem to me a something that could be categorised as 'by way of trade or business'.

Please note, I'm not suggesting that it is a good idea to either buy or sell someone's handloads. In fact in general I'd suggest quite the opposite: but that doesn't mean it's unlawful.

You are Dogbert and I claim my £5.

Making ammunition in order to sell it, rather than disposing of it in the sale of a no longer wanted gun, is called trade or business, like it or not. Your alleged generosity saves you from breaking the law. Why don't you take to advice I gave your alter ego, Dogbert, and talk to YOUR FEO about it?

Just say to him 'I want to make ammunition and sell it. Is that legal?'

Then tell us the answer.

tac