Expanding ammunition.

[kennyc]

According to every RFD I've spoken to both local & by phone and Devon & Cornwall licencing dept, expanding bullets for reloading DO need to be recorded, they have just doubled my ammunition holding allowance based purely on that fact.

it may be different in your parts, but I have never had expanding bullets added to my FAC when buying them, however they are treated as part of my "hold" allowance along with assembled rounds, and therein may lie the misunderstanding, I have also been advised they need to be secured in the same way as complete rounds.

[kennyc]

The majority of FMJ bullets available for Hornet...generally 37-45gn....are classed as "expanding" in the UK, although no differentation is made in the USA, where the boxes say "hunting, varmint or target".
Ref a previous post, I understand this bullet restriction was another daft decision from the Dunblane incident...and we wiil not see the Dunblane enquiry papers in our lifetime! I believe that the term "dum dum bullets" was used in the decision to restrict "expanding bullets". When you are shooting at paper targets, the target does not know or care what type of bullet is being used..:

I can fully understand the humane requirement to use "expanding" bullets for shooting game but not the restriction for target shooters. Presumably a game shooter has no restriction in using his expanding bullets to shoot at targets when zeroing his rifle?

amc577

the expanding allowance is a special dispensation for people who need to use such ammunition for humane reasons, that dispensation is not applied to target shooters as no one cares about the rights of cardboard sheets

[223AI]

According to every RFD I've spoken to both local & by phone and Devon & Cornwall licencing dept, expanding bullets for reloading DO need to be recorded, they have just doubled my ammunition holding allowance based purely on that fact.

I queried this with my FEO and his response was quite straight forward, it's a grey area and some RFDs choose to input it some don't, he said the only way there would ever be a definitive answer would be if someone brought a test case.

My RFD gives me tue choice, I choose to have them put on my ticket as it shows use the rifle, it will fill my ticket up but I am in the position that I can pop to my firearms department on my lunch break and get a new ticket printed so not a real issue.

[AlBur]

Post #16 gives the complete answer.
Expanding bullets count towards your total "ammunition to possess" & must be treated as ammunition

However they do NOT have to be entered into your ticket.
Along with other "interpretations" if it is not stopped it will then become "the norm" adding yet another hoop to jump through.
Similar to Durham's "voluntary" medical report scheme.

Al.

[angrybear]

it may be different in your parts, but I have never had expanding bullets added to my FAC when buying them, however they are treated as part of my "hold" allowance along with assembled rounds, and therein may lie the misunderstanding, I have also been advised they need to be secured in the same way as complete rounds.

And those reasons are exactly why they say they should be recorded as with buying assembled/factory ammo.

anyway it's not a huge problem.

[kennyc]

And those reasons are exactly why they say they should be recorded as with buying assembled/factory ammo.

anyway it's not a huge problem.

hmm someone is being awkward up your way! you have to produce your FAC to buy primers, however they are not entered on your FAC. before long someone is going to suggest ALL bullets expanding and non expanding should be entered on your FAC!!

[sarge4318]

I am often amazed at how many firearms departments are ignorant of parts of the law, and even chose which parts of the HO guidance to read and which parts don't need to be followed by them (or to be generous - perhaps they stop reading when they have read what they want to, just in case the next sentence says something they don't want to hear).

These depts then tell their RFDs and FAC holders who take it at face value (well, why wouldn't you?) and then spread it around as fact when it isn't. There are instances where transfer of exp. bullets are required to be listed but generally they are not.
If you want them listed, or your RFD wants to list them, it is up to you if you go along or not.

3.22 Category (xvi) extends the prohibition on the various types of prohibited ammunition to the
actual bullet or missile itself, not just the complete round of ammunition (a complete round
consists of the bullet, the cartridge case, the propellant and the primer). Certain categories
of shooter such as deerstalkers and vermin controllers are exempt from the requirement
to obtain the authority of the Secretary of State to possess expanding ammunition (see
Chapter 4) and will have the appropriate condition entered on their firearm certificate (see
Appendix 3). There is no need for the bullets to be listed separately on the certificate, other
than in the circumstances described below.

3.23 However, where a certificate holder requests large quantities of bullets, it should be
remembered that the total number of bullets authorised counts towards their overall
limit on possession of expanding ammunition. The exception to the rule on listing bullets
separately on a firearm certificate applies in the case of a certificate holder who wishes to
possess a variety of different types of bullets. This may be reflected in a relatively higher
overall limit on possession and, in these circumstances, the bullets should be listed
separately to help avoid unnecessary stockpiling of complete rounds. The dealer making
the sale must record transactions of expanding ammunition on the certificate and the sale
must also be recorded in the dealer’s register. Provisions for Registered Firearms Dealers
are outlined in Chapter 4.

[angrybear]

I am often amazed at how many firearms departments are ignorant of parts of the law, and even chose which parts of the HO guidance to read and which parts don't need to be followed by them (or to be generous - perhaps they stop reading when they have read what they want to, just in case the next sentence says something they don't want to hear).

These depts then tell their RFDs and FAC holders who take it at face value (well, why wouldn't you?) and then spread it around as fact when it isn't. There are instances where transfer of exp. bullets are required to be listed but generally they are not.
If you want them listed, or your RFD wants to list them, it is up to you if you go along or not.

Every word is true,
But
The Home Office Guidance is just that, "Guidance" it is not statute law, so if the police say they want them recorded there is no law saying they are wrong.

[aspen]

I just order my bullets from the continent mainly luxuborg and Germany they just send them to my door through the post.
No need for them to go on my fac simple's

[Blackbaronfish]

I just order my bullets from the continent mainly luxuborg and Germany they just send them to my door through the post.
No need for them to go on my fac simple's

Where have you ordered them from?. Do they work out cheaper?

BBF

[sarge4318]

Every word is true,
But
The Home Office Guidance is just that, "Guidance" it is not statute law, so if the police say they want them recorded there is no law saying they are wrong.

Yes the guidance isn't law but there is also no mention in the FA of recording the missiles on the FAC whereas there is for ammo, so the guidance is a better representation of the law in this instance, the police often try to make their own [interpretation of the] law but that doesn't make it law.

If you like you can let them get away with it or if you have an issue with it confront them and get them to change their ways. I have found that politely letting them know the letter of the law is often helpful and can stop a lot of problems later (especially with the their narrow interpretation of the Guidance regarding ammo limits for target shooters that weren't part of a national squad).

[pbranthwaite]

I think what the OP is suggesting is, for all bullets to be classed the same and be allowed to be posted,

[aspen]

Where have you ordered them from?. Do they work out cheaper?

BBF

I order from http://www.alpinhunting.com/ and http://www.shooting-supplies.eu/en/c...and-brass.html
I order 9.3mm and .444 and .308 expanding from these two company's they work out cheaper more often than not dependant the postage and the Euro.

[Eligus]

I think what the OP is suggesting is, for all bullets to be classed the same and be allowed to be posted,

That is exactly what I was suggesting as I can see no point in this archaic legislation from a public safety aspect or otherwise.

[Dalua]

Every word is true,
But
The Home Office Guidance is just that, "Guidance" it is not statute law, so if the police say they want them recorded there is no law saying they are wrong.

Section 5 expanding bullets are, in law, prohibited ammuntion.

Since they are themselves (just the bullets on their own, please note) prohibited ammunition that means that they are ammuntion, and therefore the seller must enter them onto the purchaser's FAC.

It is quite unequivocally the law.