My Giffards CO2 from 1880

[Garvin]

both rifles have the front-sight very close to the eye. so at my age it is not easy, to get focussed. I need some training ;-) or a big beer.

ref. the 8 mm rifle: I shot only plastic-BBs.

ref. the .177 /4,5 mm rifle: Today I fixed the spring but I have only 4,65 mm ( 0,183 inches) lead-pellets.
I can perforate with these a tin can (both walls) easily, but they might not fit exactly. So I am trying to search for a dealer which sells/offers bigger ones. Perhaps anyone here knows one????? 4,8 mm ??? 4,9 mm????

With the smaller gun (.177) I will go next week to the rifle range and shoot at 10 m /10 yards....will show results.

Jochen please see this recent thread about ideal ball sizes for Giffards.

[DT Fletcher]

@fletcher:

yes, the giffard was very expensive at its time.

No, I is not a parlor-gun. "Not" referring the power. Take a look at the hole in the board (see pictures above) with 8 mm! Shes not harmless and should be handled with great caution (similar as the Windbüchse / Girardoni..)

It's looking at the catalog pages that convinces me that these are parlor guns. In both pictures, that's how the Giffard is shown being used. No outdoors, no animals; instead it's shown being used indoors. Giffard is telling their potential customers, by these pictures, that the Giffard is a parlor-gun.

With the Giffard type of adjustable power mechanism; I would think that you could easily dial down the power to parlor level and maybe even achieve the stated 100 plus shots per charge.

As I have pointed out before, the Giffard was produced in conjunction with the first commercial introduction of CO2 in Paris in 1890. In modern terms, the Giffard is an advertising gimmick for the emerging CO2 market. It's smart marketing having a parlor-gun powered by the new miracle of the age . . .CO2!

As tied as it is to the easy availability of CO2, if you can track the CO2 industry in Paris, you might find out why the Giffard disappeared. Is there is any stoppage of the commercial CO2 production in Paris? I would think that if the first company that introduced CO2 to Paris in 1890 stopped business at some point, that might also have been the end of the gas gun.

[customstocker]

the Hungarian built feg gpm has a more complicated but very similar reservoir with the valve contained within . ive just built 2 units ( with the kind help & advice from chris buxton ) that screw onto the giffard thread M20 x 2mm pitch & have a similar internal layout as the giffard has (it was based on the giffard valve ) at the front end is an adapter , slightly off set to allow the connection of an 88 gramme umarex disposable co2 capsule or the 12 gramme adapter that gamo supply . a 12 gramme capsule gives around 35 shots on full power in the 177 calibre version. nice guns these . i would post up pics but have problems using photobucket & hate all the spam reminders that they send me . the giffard was for me such an inspiring air rifle that i used 1 of these hand made valve / reservoir units on a rimfire rifle that i changed to mirror the giffard mechanism , basically to see if it was possible to do , its finished now & is a little lighter than a giffard but gives a similar performance in the 177 calibre . i based all the screw threads on the giffard reciever but used the original rimfire hammer & a valve pin to blow open the valve . having had to make a giffard type mainspring last year with a roller on its tip & 2 holes at its rear end , i was glad to have a working lock to begin this project with ....otherwise its an awful lot of filing .

Can't recall if the original selling price for a Giffard is known? Would be nice to know.

I think it was a high priced gun in it's day and that was one of the reasons it didn't do well. Then, since getting CO2 refills was a hassle, they tended to sit around in the gun closet. Plus, there had to have been disappointment in the lower than the overhyped power of the gun. They're in great shape because they haven't been shot. Even today, I suspect that the vast majority of Giffard rifles are sitting around.... just like they've been sitting around for the last 135 years.

Seeing the pictures (thanks!) realized I had never seen the internals before. Doesn't get much simpler than that. Didn't realize (never thought about it, actually) that the exhaust valve is contained inside the CO2 tank. Can't think of another CO2 gun with this arrangement. The Crosman CG has a valve on the tank but it's not the exhaust valve. This unique exhaust valve arrangement of the Giffard makes it pretty difficult to attach any sort of modern tank. Would need a special adaptor to the modern tank that includes it's own exhaust valve. Doable but certainly not easy.

[j_potter]

hi jochen, many thanks for an excellent thread. The highest serial number i've found so far is 33141 for an 8mm rifle.
Mine is 2085 on your list! Do you think the plastic ball can cause any damage to the bore by leaving any residue? i'd
like to try this idea. Finally, the advert you posted clearly shows the larger calibres for 'La Chasse' so they were
definately marketed for hunting.

[DT Fletcher]

the Hungarian built feg gpm has a more complicated but very similar reservoir with the valve contained within . ive just built 2 units ( with the kind help & advice from chris buxton ) that screw onto the giffard thread M20 x 2mm pitch & have a similar internal layout as the giffard has (it was based on the giffard valve ) at the front end is an adapter , slightly off set to allow the connection of an 88 gramme umarex disposable co2 capsule or the 12 gramme adapter that gamo supply . a 12 gramme capsule gives around 35 shots on full power in the 177 calibre version. nice guns these . i would post up pics but have problems using photobucket & hate all the spam reminders that they send me . the giffard was for me such an inspiring air rifle that i used 1 of these hand made valve / reservoir units on a rimfire rifle that i changed to mirror the giffard mechanism , basically to see if it was possible to do , its finished now & is a little lighter than a giffard but gives a similar performance in the 177 calibre . i based all the screw threads on the giffard reciever but used the original rimfire hammer & a valve pin to blow open the valve . having had to make a giffard type mainspring last year with a roller on its tip & 2 holes at its rear end , i was glad to have a working lock to begin this project with ....otherwise its an awful lot of filing .

Of course, I would have no idea about the internal works of a feg gpm. Are there any schematics available showing the cylinder valve?

[aimless]

Voilà:

http://sta.sh/0imhka5dikw

Jochen

[customstocker]

Of course, I would have no idea about the internal works of a feg gpm. Are there any schematics available showing the cylinder valve?

http://ponggi.hu/index.php?mod=gpm-d2

this explains whats going on , although the little devil is even harder to fix a leak on than a giffard as the factory didnt have valve seal material that was really up to the job , so alot of them fail after a few years & need replacing . it is possible to buy replacement seals , but easier to have ptfe ones made as they will outlast the factory made units, although its so tiny its like trying to make a femidom for barbie . cool under rated pistols these , & highly prized by the natives .

[aimless]

http://www.muzzle.de/N2/CO2/FEG_GPM-...1_manual01.JPG


I forgot ( as far as I know) : the feg gmp-01 was offered in the US as the Daisy Modell 91 with slight differences. Maybe you will find this way any more informations...

[aimless]

Hi, luckily I found an original and rare accessories case:

wooden with booklet (19 pages) , an original catalogue "MANUFRANCE" ( 1894, 210 pages) and two reservoirs. I attach pictures in higher resolution. Maybe you are interested!

Jochen

complete set:

http://sta.sh/0sn1go3tb2y


booklet front page

http://sta.sh/01mam8pvthzc

booklet rear page

http://sta.sh/01jouhcocvxi

catalogue MANUFRANCE front page

http://sta.sh/025cff9ve4fs

view inside the "Manufacture"

http://sta.sh/01h2dnhjhjw3

[micky]

Hi Jochen what a find, you are lucky. do you think the box is original or one someone made, the catalogues are very rare, l have one which is from 1911 which still as the Giffards rifles and pistols for sale.

[aimless]

Hi Micky, I am quite sure, that the case is original, because the inlet is 100% fitted for the two reservoirs and the imprint is really "imprinted" like an hallmark in the wood. And the booklet fits exactly in the two clips attached at the clap.
I guess, that a filling-adapter (?) an oil-can(?) or some maintenance pieces are missing....

And YES: catalogues are very much rarer than the rifles itself!!!!

best regards, Jochen

[johnbaz]

As far as I know most antique, ball, butt , barrel reservoir guns and air canes have the exhaust valves in the reservoirs, these are compressed air guns, which are pre Giffard guns and are easily converted to Co2 use by using a modern valve material, as I have done with all the ones I own, the part that should not be there shown in Aimless's picture is the part that seems to be entwined in the middle of the exhaust valve spring, which looks like it has been put there to support a broken exhaust valve spring, as mentioned by Mr Fletcher they are very simple valve mechanisms, and when resealed will last many years of use before requiring a reseal if at all, I use 95 shore hardness polyurethane in all of the ones I own.

Regards, Lawrie.

Hi Lawrie

I was going through my emails a few days ago and found some pics of some of you gorgeous old guns, Among them was your Giffard pistol, I could add a pic of it to this thread if you wish or start another thread and include the others, The Supergrade, Plink o matice 677 and others

By the way, If you're still at the same address, I found the silver sold that I thought had been stolen, It had fallen down the back of the Dexion shelving in the garage!!!

I can send you some now as I promised years ago!!!


Cheers, John

[aimless]

picture of the adaptor piece (reservoir mount).

http://sta.sh/02c1fins9i0b

picture of the CO2 tank with the mounted adaptor:

http://sta.sh/02d974bvjex8

reservoir is not mounted on the picture. You can cool it down before filling . The pressure is 60 bar.

best regards, Jochen

[Andy001]

I've never seen one of these guns before. They look nice, I didn't realise they make C02 guns as early as 1880.

[DT Fletcher]

. . . didn't realise they make C02 guns as early as 1880.

The Giffards CO2 guns were first made available in 1890, to coencide with the commercial availability of CO2 for the first time in Paris during the 1890 Paris Expo.

Prior to 1890, CO2 was only available in the laboratory. The earliest mentions in scientific journals of how to liquify pressurized CO2 occurred in the 1850s. One of the earliest recorded uses of CO2 as a propellant in guns can be tracked back to about 1865 with the k.k. Austrian Genie Corp.