Some advice

[Lansdown]

Hi all,
I have been shooting black powder for a few years now mainly a revolver and a .45 ML rifle. I have decided that I want to push the boat out a bit further and have splashed out on a .577 Parker Hale 2 band muzzle loader.

Having looked through this site I see that the preferred minie size is about 510 to 566. The only ones I have currently been able to obtain are heavier than that at about 620g. I was planning to try these with a load of 65g of medium black powder. Does that sound like a good starting point?

I suspect that most of you gents cast your own bullets, something I am considering as the minie’s are not cheap!! Where is the best place to obtain a suitable mould? I believe the Lyman mould is recommended? I assume the 575213PH or the575213?
Are these available to purchase in the UK (I have not found any to date) or do I need to go to the States? Will I also need a sizing die? If so where can I get one of those?

Finally does any one shoot a patched ball out of these? If so how does that compare to the minie?

Many Thanks
Lansdown (Bob)

[tacfoley]

Hi all,
I have been shooting black powder for a few years now mainly a revolver and a .45 ML rifle. I have decided that I want to push the boat out a bit further and have splashed out on a .577 Parker Hale 2 band muzzle loader.

Having looked through this site I see that the preferred minie size is about 510 to 566. The only ones I have currently been able to obtain are heavier than that at about 620g. I was planning to try these with a load of 65g of medium black powder. Does that sound like a good starting point?

I suspect that most of you gents cast your own bullets, something I am considering as the minie’s are not cheap!! Where is the best place to obtain a suitable mould? I believe the Lyman mould is recommended? I assume the 575213PH or the575213?
Are these available to purchase in the UK (I have not found any to date) or do I need to go to the States? Will I also need a sizing die? If so where can I get one of those?

Finally does any one shoot a patched ball out of these? If so how does that compare to the minie?

Many Thanks
Lansdown (Bob)

Most moulds of my acquaintance throw a Minié bullet of around 535gr - certainly the Lyman does that. But you need to measure the bore at the muzzle and subtract 1.5-2 thou to get a good fit, usually referred to as a 'thumbing-in' fit. The bullet should then load under the weight of the loading rod. The skirt needs to be fairly thin in order for the propellant gases to expand it into the grooves, and the bullet made of pure soft lead, in order to do just that. I've never heard of any notionally .577cal as small as .566", let alone .510". In my Parker-Hale Musketoon I shoot a .578" Minié over a plinking load of 55gr. Where your comment about the 'preferred size' originates, I have no idea.

If you give me your address I'll send you one of mine, made using my Lyman mould, and you can take it from there. No sizing is needed for a Minié - YOU do the sizing when you load it. Lubing is important though, and there are as many opinions about what to use as there are shooters. Me, I use a 60/40 Beeswax/Neats Foot oil mix - others will use Bore Butter [if they can stand the wintergreen smell].

Lyman, Palmetto, Rapine and Lee all make a suitable Minié bullet - I'm uncertain as to why those you have found make such a heavy version - I've never seen any that weighty - doesn't mean that there aren't any, just that I've never seen them.

Your load is in the middle of the 'sweet' range - anything between 60 and 68 gr is usually suitable out to the usual 800 yards-maximum range for the open-sighted two-bander in the MLAGB comps. The service load was 2.5 drams - 68.5gr, of fine rifle powder - about today's FFg or Swiss equivalent.

The rifling ROT is not set up for a patched ball, although there are some who have tried it with greater or lesser degree of success. IMO it defeats the object of having a gun designed to fire a particular type of bullet, and it would certainly be a waste of powder and lead at anything more than 50 yards, but that's just me talking, since I've never tried it - I just know a lot of people who have. Bear in mind that the patched ball will weigh considerably less than the bullet, right?

tac
www.muzzleloadingforum.com

[Lansdown]

Tac,
Thanks for the reply and my apologies for confusing you!!!
I should have said weight rather than size. The 510 and 566 refer to grains rather thou's/inches.

The only ones I have found to date were from Kranks ref USA 523-577 with a stated weight of 620gr so a bit heavier than the more normal 535gr.

I appreciate that the minie bullet should be a close fit in the barrel and that the gasses should "seal" the bullet in the bore to ensure the rifling functions correctly and spins the bullet. I have tried one of the 620gr bullets in the barrel and I think it will fit quite snuggly.

Again apologies for the confusion.

Lansdown (Bob)

[tacfoley]

Tac,
Thanks for the reply and my apologies for confusing you!!!
I should have said weight rather than size. The 510 and 566 refer to grains rather thou's/inches.

The only ones I have found to date were from Kranks ref USA 523-577 with a stated weight of 620gr so a bit heavier than the more normal 535gr.

I appreciate that the minie bullet should be a close fit in the barrel and that the gasses should "seal" the bullet in the bore to ensure the rifling functions correctly and spins the bullet. I have tried one of the 620gr bullets in the barrel and I think it will fit quite snuggly.

Again apologies for the confusion.

Lansdown (Bob)

'kay.

Like I said, the official Minié bullet, as used by the allies in the Crimea, the French and British subsequently, and the antagonists in the WoNA, was 'just' 535gr. That near 100gr difference is sure going to make a difference, so let us know how you get on, eh?

tac

[Lansdown]

Tac,
Will do.
Its just a short term solution with the weightier minie's to let me try the rifle out and make some smoke! Ultimately I intend to start moulding my own hopefully with a bullet more suitable and along the lines you recommend - I just need to identify a suitable mould and supplier - a job for tomorrow!
Again thanks for your help.
Lansdown (Bob)

[tacfoley]

Tac,
Will do.
Its just a short term solution with the weightier minie's to let me try the rifle out and make some smoke! Ultimately I intend to start moulding my own hopefully with a bullet more suitable and along the lines you recommend - I just need to identify a suitable mould and supplier - a job for tomorrow!
Again thanks for your help.
Lansdown (Bob)

I made an offer in my first post, I assume you don't intend to take it up?

Not a problem.

tac
www.muzzleloadingforum.com

[tim56]

My old 2 band loved a patched round ball on top of a light load of 55grns of powder, my Musketoon don't like em. There are a few molds available from the likes
of Lyman etc and iv tried a few bullet types that the good folks on here have sent me but always seem to finish up back with the Lyman 575213 cast out of pure
lead with a 50/50 mix of tallow/bees wax lube sat on top of 70grns of black powder. Freestanding i can usually keep em in a 6" (ish) group at 50m on a good day,
not fantastic but not too bad for my old eyes. Theres something very satisfying about shooting a .577 even if you can't hit the proverbial barn door at first. Loads
of smoke and flames with a very big BANG.
If you want to send me a pm with an address i don't mind sending you a few minnies and some round ball/patchs to try.
Best wishes, Tim

[tacfoley]

My old 2 band loved a patched round ball on top of a light load of 55grns of powder, my Musketoon don't like em. There are a few molds available from the likes
of Lyman etc and iv tried a few bullet types that the good folks on here have sent me but always seem to finish up back with the Lyman 575213 cast out of pure
lead with a 50/50 mix of tallow/bees wax lube sat on top of 70grns of black powder. Freestanding i can usually keep em in a 6" (ish) group at 50m on a good day,
not fantastic but not too bad for my old eyes. Theres something very satisfying about shooting a .577 even if you can't hit the proverbial barn door at first. Loads
of smoke and flames with a very big BANG.
If you want to send me a pm with an address i don't mind sending you a few minnies and some round ball/patchs to try.
Best wishes, Tim

Told ya.

tac

[enfield2band]

Tac,
Thanks for the reply and my apologies for confusing you!!!
I should have said weight rather than size. The 510 and 566 refer to grains rather thou's/inches.

The only ones I have found to date were from Kranks ref USA 523-577 with a stated weight of 620gr so a bit heavier than the more normal 535gr.

I appreciate that the minie bullet should be a close fit in the barrel and that the gasses should "seal" the bullet in the bore to ensure the rifling functions correctly and spins the bullet. I have tried one of the 620gr bullets in the barrel and I think it will fit quite snuggly.

Again apologies for the confusion.

Lansdown (Bob)

The 620gr bullet sounds like the Pedersoli mould which has a shallow base.

As with all bullets, you have to find the right one for your gun. There are three members in my club that each have an original Enfield 2 Band. All three guns fire a different bullet and use a different powder charge. The loads and bullets will not shoot accurately in one of the other guns, they have tried.
Two of them are engineers and have turned down several different types of base plug and tried them until they got the accuracy they wanted. Most of us are not that fortunate so we have to try whatever we buy over the counter.

I would take up any offer of sample bullets, and try as many as you can before buying a mould.

tac & tim56 have kindly offered to send you a sample. I would accept their offer, it might save you wasting money on a mould that does not suit.

Atb.

[Lansdown]

Gents,
Many thanks for your very helpful replies!

I will pm Tim and Tac with my details and take up your offers of trying a few of your home cast minies etc.

Just checked and Lyman mould type 575213 is in stock plus types 575213PH and 577611 are also in stock. 575213 looks to weigh in at 510gr. 575213PH at 566gr, but has a shallow base so maybe not ideal and the 577611 at 530gr. So probably a couple to choose from.

Again thanks for your help - much appreciated.
Lansdown (Bob)

[tacfoley]

Gents,
Many thanks for your very helpful replies!

I will pm Tim and Tac with my details and take up your offers of trying a few of your home cast minies etc.

Just checked and Lyman mould type 575213 is in stock plus types 575213PH and 577611 are also in stock. 575213 looks to weigh in at 510gr. 575213PH at 566gr, but has a shallow base so maybe not ideal and the 577611 at 530gr. So probably a couple to choose from.

Again thanks for your help - much appreciated.
Lansdown (Bob)

All the notionally .577cal rifles I've looked at over the years seem to prefer a thinner skirt. The service charge of 'only' 68.5gr of FFg is not usually enough to expand the heavy skirted, shallow-based version. Remember that some folks shoot Miniés with 120gr or even more of FFg at very large and furry targets - hence the perceived need for 'heavy and thick' in some quarters.

As noted in the post above, a degree of experimentation is to be expected, especially as we don't actually know that your Parker-Hale is a real Parker-Hale, and not a Euroarms version. I've seen some evidence of signs of production creep in Euroarms remakes, now that they do not have regular access to the original P-H machinery set-ups. The number of Parker-Hale barrels that were 'moved' to Euroarms must have dried up long ago. I cannot speak for any other maker, as I haven't actually seen any.

While you're waiting for Tim's and my bullets to arrive, you might just care to read this thread from gunboards, including illustrated input from YT, about trying to blast a hole into the next dimension with Miniés with skirts as thick as it is possible to be and still called a skirt -

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...rom-my-Enfield

tac

[Lansdown]

Tac,
Very interesting and informative link. Having read that I can't see the large minie's I purchased being much use as I suspect the skirts will be way too thick! Still I will give them a try together with the other "samples" when they arrive.
Again thanks.
Lansdown (Bob)

PS
Just to answer one other point you raised - as far as I can tell its an "original" Parker Hale of Birmingham manufacture, The barrel markings and stampings on the stock are as they should be and the serial number matches the info I found on this site for UK rather than Italian manufacture.

[Lansdown]

Well,
I went out to the range on Sunday and tried the latest addition (.577 Parker Hale 2 band Enfield).

I was really impressed with the ease of loading with the Minies. (I gave a quick swab with a damp patch between rounds to minimise some of the crud build up which may have helped.)

I had samples from 3 forum members plus the ones I had purchased and I tried them all!!! All fitted easily, if a touch messy with the lube, and as far as I tell could fired well without any issues – just plenty of smoke, flames and a bit of a kick (great fun!!!).

Accuracy was, though, definitely an issue (probably me as much as anything else) - they all shot high at least 6 to 8” above point of aim at about 40 yds. To the extent that most initially missed the target I had until I changed my point of aim. From the ones that did hit the target there was no evidence of bullet tumble, just nice clean round holes in the paper target.

Owing to the weather and the open range we use I could not easily get a bench to the firing point so I shot either standing or kneeling. Next time I will definitely get a bench on the firing point so that I can shoot off a rest and be a bit more scientific. Interestingly 3 of us also had a pop at some 2ltr water bottles at 100 yds and managed to hit those.

I have had a quick look, but have not yet found any sort of ballistic info on minie’s so does anyone one have any rough idea what sort of drop I could expect from a minie between 40 and 100yds? (hopefully that makes sense).

Again thanks to those who sent me some samples – it’s a great firearm I just need to get to know it a lot better, which I am looking forward to!!!

Lansdown (Bob)

[steve medlock]

Bob,

You should be able to throw the bullet 40 yds - there's no need to load it in the gun...

Seriously though, the lowest sight setting I think is for 100yds so you normally have to aim low at 50yds.

Steve.

[tacfoley]

I have had a quick look, but have not yet found any sort of ballistic info on minie’s so does anyone one have any rough idea what sort of drop I could expect from a minie between 40 and 100yds? (hopefully that makes sense).

Again thanks to those who sent me some samples – it’s a great firearm I just need to get to know it a lot better, which I am looking forward to!!!

Lansdown (Bob)

Problem is with your question, Bob, is that it is not a scientific question. The bullet drop of ANY bullet is dependent on a number of factors -

1. The weight of the bullet.

2. The shape of the bullet.

3. Most importantly, the velocity of the bullet.

Since we have no idea of how fast your bullet is going, we cannot determine a trajectory for it.

I'll do a bit of digging around, but I suspect that any data I find will be based on the Hythe documentation, using the British 535gr Minié bullet over the service load of 2.5 drams - 68.5gr of FRP.

Shooting at 40 yards is certainly NOT helpful - as has been pointed out, the POA and POI of this bullet are set to conicide at 100 yards when shooting with the sights set to 100 yards - AND 68.5gr of FRP - this is ordinarily accepted to be the same as Swiss #2 powder. There is probably no other powder on earth that is so near the old stuff in quality and power as Swiss.

However, I suggest that you read THIS htread from another forum - http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/traditi...d-musket-load/ and alo get on to the MLAGB forum and read David Minshall's treatise on shooting the P53, as a former World and European as well as national champio target shooter with his rifle, he knows whereof he speaks.

tac