Webley Senior/Mk I springs spec (Chambers)

[felix gunner]

Looking to fit new springs but Chambers lists the same part number MS071 for both models. It's not totally clear but it seems according to 'Bruce' the springs do differ between these models.

Can anyone confirm?

[felix gunner]

OK, no replies as yet (where are all the big Webley pistol collectors today! ) so I called the very helpful Chambers and they confirmed that although there were numerous small changes to the spring spec throughout the MK I, Senior, Premier lifetime they now only stock one spring to Webley spec and suitable for all these models - he measured it as 35 1/2 coils, flat wire and 175mm (6 7/8").

I'll post this info as it might help others in the future. I wanted to check all this out due to what happened to my Senior's barrel as per that topic (still looking for a .177 barrel or skilled welder! ) and make sure someone had not 'oversprung' it but the actual spring in there matches the Webley spec spot on.

Digging through Gordon Bruce and to summarise from various snippets of info, however, there are contradictions in places hence the variances in some info: original Mk I spring was 36/37 coil and 7" to 7.25" (round/flattened sides), same for the Mk II. Junior spring was 6 1/2" 30 coils, (round) 0.48" diameter. Senior spec is given: max length reduced to 7" from 7.25", Senior new model detailed specs are given as: best spring steel (.75 - .85 carbon), wire section 0.106 inch, 37 coils, 6.875" to 7 ". Same spec adopted for Premier in 1967 and min length reduced to 6.625" and 35 coils.

Taking all this into account the one standardised Chambers spring seems like it should be a pretty good match for all these pistols.

[laverdabru]

Thanks for the info. Having previously owned a pre war Junior & post wark Mk1, & now a Senior, any data is helpful. My only ref work is a late edition of L Wesley. Back in the day - from his penetration/fps ratings, it appears they had different power outputs. And presumably springs.

ATB

Bru

PS I'm still looking for a 177 barrel for the Senior & Hurricane as well.

[felix gunner]

Thanks, Bruce gives power as follows (.177/.22):

Mk I 367/273 fps
Mk II 410/325
Junior I 287
Senior 416/330
Mk I New 345/293
Junior Mk I Series 2 and Junior 2 290
Premier I and II 350/310

When I Combro'd mine a while back I got the following:

MK I .22 - 275 fps (2.44 ft lbs) (average of 10 shot string with 14.5 gr Superdome)
Junior Mk I series 2 - 223 (0.77 ! ft lbs) (average of 10 shot string with 7.0 gr Hobby) - new spring on the way and new piston washer being made too...
Senior .177 (circa 1955-58) - 420 fps (2.75 ft lbs) (average of 10 shot string with 7.0 gr Hobby)

[Heavy Roller]

Chambers show a different mainspring for the Junior model, MS070, which is smaller than the MS071 for the other models.

[felix gunner]

Indeed, the Junior has always had a smaller spring (6 1/2" 30 coils, round wire) than the full size pistols (Mk 1, II, Senior, Premier etc) and was not included in the OP - full specs in second post.

[lodmoor]

Two comments.

The guns are old so the original springs are not available (though I have two complete with seals - chuckle chuckle) so what you can get (Chambers, Fleabay etc) are a sort of standardised/will fit and do the job compromise. Chambers sold me the same spring they supply for the Webley for a Diana MK4, it seems all pistol springs are now a sort of bog standard.

My second comment relates to things said about pistol performances. This I do not get, I collect air pistols for their, well, beauty, quirkyness, quality of manufacture, interesting design, 'cos I love them, whatever - I am not interested in their power output or accuracy, that is for modern guns that are being used in competitions (or back garden plinking). Providing my guns are complete, original and working I really do not care what power output I get or what pellet is best for them. When I do exercise them I try to use pellets from their period but that, really, is collector's snobbery and not necessary.

Minor rant over.

[felix gunner]

Two comments.

My second comment relates to things said about pistol performances. This I do not get, I collect air pistols for their, well, beauty, quirkyness, quality of manufacture, interesting design, 'cos I love them, whatever - I am not interested in their power output or accuracy, that is for modern guns that are being used in competitions (or back garden plinking). Providing my guns are complete, original and working I really do not care what power output I get or what pellet is best for them. When I do exercise them I try to use pellets from their period but that, really, is collector's snobbery and not necessary.

Minor rant over.

Good point - TBH, I had a rainy afternoon in the garage a year to so back and out of curiosity thought it would be interesting to see how the power compared to the 'official' figures and to see if I could make a Combro work with Webleys...

I'm only interested in power in two areas really - that my 77K remains below 12ft lbs and on a more modern theme with regards to modding Makarovs to see improvements to valving, barrel swaps etc.

As you say though for vintage stuff it's pretty academic.

[felix gunner]

An update - good news and bad news and worth reading this if you need a new Junior spring.

I received the new springs from Chambers today, MS 071 (Mk I, Senior, Premier) is very well made, almost identical in length, flat wire style and finish - fit is perfect, needs a little polish at the ends of course but all good.

However, the Junior spring is a no go for my Junior at least.

This is documented in Bruce P127 [discussing the Junior Mk II]; "...one component..undergo small change...was the mainspring...outer diameter remained unchanged...[but]inner diameter of the coil became slightly smaller [due to use of thicker gauge wire - from 0.068 inch to 0.072 inch]...it then became necessary [on new production pistols] for the spring guide to be modified...0.010 inch removed from it's diameter to accommodate the spring coils [change introduced 1975].....those customers ordering a new mainspring for an older pistol generally required [the same modification to their spring guide ie machining the spring guide smaller].

So, it seems Chambers have used this later Webley spec for the spring - and it is no good for us earlier Junior users unless we have them machined. It would be best if they use the older spec wire then it would fit them all.

The only other new Junior springs I have seen advertised are from Helston on - however, this has an issue too (I had to return one), the inner diameter is fine but the outer diameter is too large and it binds on the inside of the piston.

I only have Bruce and the limited experience of a few Webleys and springs to back this up - would be good to hear from the more serious Webley collectors for their experience.

[Edit] Just spoke to the very helpful Chambers again and they will look at this and even remaking some obsolete Webley parts (they are undergoing a large expansion) but the issues are demand/cost/time of course. And the difficulties of obtaining the correct gauge wire to make springs to the older Webley spec which would fit all the Juniors.

[Josie & John]

I recall years ago asking for a new Junior mainspring from a well known London gunshop and coming away with a way too large spring intended for the Premier. Despite my questioning this, the shop said 'all Webley pistols take the same spring!' I had to go back for a refund and ended up sending off for a proper one from Dennis Hiller. That was the start of a long standing friendship with Dennis and I should have gone to him to start with. Luckily Chambers seem to have been very helpful in this instance.

John

[laverdabru]

Two comments.


My second comment relates to things said about pistol performances. This I do not get, I collect air pistols for their, well, beauty, quirkyness, quality of manufacture, interesting design, 'cos I love them, whatever - I am not interested in their power output or accuracy, that is for modern guns that are being used in competitions (or back garden plinking). Providing my guns are complete, original and working I really do not care what power output I get or what pellet is best for them. When I do exercise them I try to use pellets from their period but that, really, is collector's snobbery and not necessary.

Minor rant over.

Guess we all have our different reasons. Personally, I see no point in using 'pellets from their period' when using my older rifles or pistols. I prefer using my older rifles for plinking - the more modern stuff is too clinically accurate. As for my pistols, new & old, they are all used for plinking. And get exercised on a regular basis - guess I'm a user rather than a collector...

Bru

[felix gunner]

I'm thinking of reaming out the spring (don't want to touch the original Webley spring guide) that Chambers sent.....

[felix gunner]

I think the above was not one of my brightest ideas and was never really going to work!

Looks like I might just get the spring guide machined afterall - it's only 1/4 mm to be skimmed anyway, I can then use the Chambers spring.

[felix gunner]

Final (unhappy) update. After all that and taking a fraction off the spring guide so the spring slides on nicely and re-assembling it would not engage the sear.

It's spring-bound. The spring is virtually identical in length to the original but I can only assume the thicker gauge wire compresses less hence the sear will not engage.

So, if you want an off the shelf spring for an earlier Junior - tough!

[Josie & John]

Sorry to hear of your experience Max.

Protek are currently advertising genuine Webley springs still with original tags and may have one that fits the bill.

Kind regards,

John