FYI: if you own a WEBLEY Mk3 or BSA AIRSPORTER re 'MAINSPRINGS'

[Phil Russell]

In short .. I am a little tired of having to doctor some after market springs, in particular Titan black coated ones. I have no doubt they are good quality but I have yet to find one that is a direct replacement i.e. no cutting / refinishing and will give output within 12 ft lbs. They all seem to be 'over' and at times require supreme effort to fit ... always a bad sign in my book. So if I have to, I do cut and refinish.
Is there a market for softer springs? Maybe, but I do not know how many might potentially be sold. One of the reasons I started colecting data on the springs fitted as original spec to old and current guns was in the hope that if I needed a new spring I could find one from a current gun that would fit, and hopefully not be a 'Titan' breed. In furtherance of this objective I have tried to get some 'magazine rifle service/tuners' to publish the spec of the spring from the rifles they strip. I have not yet succeeded, even though the efort to measure the spring would be, I feel, minimal but of great value.
I wonder what Jim Tyler uses for his 'softer' springs ... I will ask if I see him at the Show in a few days time.

I was pondering sourcing springs from a manufacturer a few days ago. There are several around offering carbon steel or stainless steel springs in airgun sizes (or close to) but no prices. Most offered a 'made to measure' service but none gave prices. I did not follow up on my search as I had no real idea of what spec I would be asked for, except wire diam and id / od, pitch and length dimensions. In the end I came to the conclusion that for the number of springs I use it would not be economical.

So ... this is a worthy initiative but I am not sure of the market. I would use maybe 12 - 15 per year, generally of the Airsporter / Meteor type sizes plus some (maybe 4) of Meteor type size but smaller wire diameter .. say 2.8mm.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Phil

[chieffool]

it ALL helps. Odd though - isn't it?!

If my brief calculation above is right for Webley Mk3 of 60,000+ production run (ANYONE KNOW BETTER?)....
...and BSA Airsporter where similar - wouldn't 100,000+ (playing safe) potential guns at least 40 years old be a potential market?

I realise many have simply faded away, forgotten. And that others may be in the hands of people who aren't interested - but equally i think it fair to suggest that those that do remain in 'active' ownership might be in the hands of dedicated owners...

JUST OUT OF INTEREST: have 'we' (the forum) ever considered a research questionnaire (possibly anonymous) to all members asking what they own? I know many 'sign' their posts with lists of their metal - but do we have a census?

[felix gunner]

JUST OUT OF INTEREST: have 'we' (the forum) ever considered a research questionnaire (possibly anonymous) to all members asking what they own? I know many 'sign' their posts with lists of their metal - but do we have a census?

A very good idea, needs to be anonymous though of course and as a snapshot poll - I think the choices in the list of 'Do you own X?' might be ridiculously long though.

[chieffool]

Certainly: Anonymous.
it doesn't necessarily have to be 100% comprehensive - otherwise you truly will be there 'forever' trying to compile.

I even think there are sort of 'forum tools' which could allow a member (in an ideal world) to log on - go to site - register a 'tick box' list (like a voting mechanic almost).....

...perhaps doing lists by manufacturer....

.... or perhaps (as in this instance): centering on a set of specific guns to solve an issue or test a market:

ie List No 1 "Vintage and antique Springers".
Got to be good for Webley and BSA alone as a starting point?
(eg BSA: Lincoln Jeffries, Model D & B, Standard, Light.... through breakers to Airsporter, and for Webley: Mk1 & 2 service, Mk3, etc).
All Old/Classic/Antique - and all facing similar spring supply issues?

[wonky donky]

Titan springs were introduced iirc as Titan XS many years ago when we generally knew very little of the complicated physics of the airgun. The OX & Titan were supposed to increase the power of your airgun, with the Titan being marketed as having this great anti slip coating.

All in all neither is a direct replacement for any manufacturers spring, all in except a few cases they just oversprung the rifle as very few rifles at the time actually had the potential of exceeding 12fpe.

As for spring quality the Titan wire is superb, the coating, I have my doudts about it's usefulness tbh, if nothing else it's a sales gimmick!

The wire the MK3 spring was made from will be imperial, not metric so 1/8" then? Pre- load is measured as soon as you start to unscrew the trigger block ie. The bottom of the thread inside the cylinder to the top of the spring after the block is removed...I'm not trying to teach my Granny, it's surprising how many get this wrong!

29 coils of 1/8" wire with a free length of 240/250mm will make the spring far too stiff. i think the originals were 225mm with 30 coils. I always removed a coil usually increasing the power a little as the rifle was oversprung right from the get go!

Coils are counted from the first complete turn, find the end of the wire, follow it round & where it meets itself, that's one coil, LIKE THIS then continue up the spring, when you reach the other end its often part of a coil ie. 0.5 or 0.75 of a coil. LIKE THIS This is important as it adds to pre-load. Again not trying to teach my granny.

What I suggest is a spring with 3.2mm or 1/8" wire, 26/29 coils with a free length of 190/200mm. Put one M10 steel washer into the bottom of the piston for the spring to twist & try that.

Last time I serviced a MK3 my records tell me I used 26 coils, 190 f/l 3,2mm wire giving a Vo of approx 650fps using RWS Superdome in a .177. Not far from the marketing litrature iirc may be a bit more?

I can soon make one up for you to try.

Cocking the MK3 is never going to be a 2 finger effort, they were never easy from new. I have seen many MK3 cocking levers bent after continual use due to the effort required with the standard factory spring.

Hope this helps.

[chieffool]

Titan springs were introduced iirc as Titan XS many years ago.....
....As for spring quality the Titan wire is superb, the coating, I have my doudts about it's usefulness tbh, if nothing else it's a sales gimmick!...
....The wire the MK3 spring was made from will be imperial, not metric so 1/8" then? ...
....Pre- load is measured as soon as you start to unscrew the trigger block ie. The bottom of the thread inside the cylinder to the top of the spring after the block is removed...I'm not trying to teach my Granny, it's surprising how many get this wrong!
...
29 coils of 1/8" wire with a free length of 240/250mm will make the spring far too stiff. i think the originals were 225mm with 30 coils. I always removed a coil usually increasing the power a little as the rifle was oversprung right from the get go!

Coils are counted from the first complete turn, find the end of the wire, follow it round & where it meets itself, that's one coil, LIKE THIS then continue up the spring, when you reach the other end its often part of a coil ie. 0.5 or 0.75 of a coil. LIKE THIS This is important as it adds to pre-load. Again not trying to teach my granny.

What I suggest is a spring with 3.2mm or 1/8" wire, 26/29 coils with a free length of 190/200mm. Put one M10 steel washer into the bottom of the piston for the spring to twist & try that.

Last time I serviced a MK3 my records tell me I used 26 coils, 190 f/l 3,2mm wire giving a Vo of approx 650fps using RWS Superdome in a .177. Not far from the marketing litrature iirc may be a bit more?

I can soon make one up for you to try.

Cocking the MK3 is never going to be a 2 finger effort, they were never easy from new. I have seen many MK3 cocking levers bent after continual use due to the effort required with the standard factory spring.

Hope this helps.

WHAT A STAR!!!!
Many, many thanks. I'm still doing chrono tests taking off one coil at a time.... and the results are not encouraging.
BUT - based on the above, i think (hope) the figures will get better in about 4 x coils time!

[wonky donky]

WHAT A STAR!!!!
Many, many thanks. I'm still doing chrono tests taking off one coil at a time.... and the results are not encouraging.
BUT - based on the above, i think (hope) the figures will get better in about 4 x coils time!

You need to make sure you don't have a large leak at the tap, test it first! Cock the rifle, open the tap & whilst holding the cocking lever with at least as much force used to cock it, pull the trigger holding the lever letting it close slowly, you should be able to close the lever before the air has all leaked out.

A good seal will not let the piston move forward all the way until the tap is closed, sometimes untill you shut the tap, one that leaks as you close the lever is not so good. You will know the difference. A very leaky breech will sap power like no tomorrow!

Also I'm not sure what spring your cutting down but it sounds like you have other issues to me?

[draitzer]

I've had this same problem in 25 years of fixing old airguns, mostly long-obsolete models. Jim Maccari aka 'the spring man' in the U.S. has been a great resource for springs but he doesn't list all the dimensions of his offerings. Just today I found that the Vortek website is offering a variety of springs with all dimensions shown (Vortek's Tom Gore is best known for gas-spring kits to suit modern guns):
http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/a...ir-Gun-Springs

I've bought used springs off _bay and out of odds-boxes at airgun shows which have been useful for old guns, and likely some OEM springs from current or recent guns will suit our vintage guns. But it would be really convenient to have original spring dimensions for various models so we'd know a) what the original specs were in the old guns, and b) what current springs would work as replacements.

As to "old vs modern metallurgy", this is really not an issue: higher-strength springs with better manufacturing methods simply allow for running closer to the stress limit of the material without early fatigue failure. A spring's RATE (force/deflection) depends ONLY on dimensions, as the elastic modulus of all types of steel is virtually identical.

Don R.

[ccdjg]

There is a possible alternative approach to the problem of finding replacement springs and that is to recondition the original spring. Provided it has no hidden stress cracks or excessive corrosion then it should be restorable to its former glory. This would involve first annealing it, then putting it back in the gun and compressing it in its soft state to straighten it and even up the coil spacing, then stretching it to the required length, and finally hardening and tempering it at the appropriate temperature. The only real difficulty is the hardening and tempering stage, for which you really need a temperature controlled furnace, but if you can find a friendly engineer with access to such a thing, you could easily do the rest yourself. I have made a few springs myself, and provided you temper them slightly soft they will not crack. The slight softness is not a problem unless you like to leave your guns cocked for long periods.

[martintheveg]

Chieffool, I would certainly be interested in a couple of mk 3 springs for my two. I am a total newbie but hope to be able to strip and clean both my rifes in the very near future when I have learnt more.
If the production run of these springs eventually materialises, great idea that it is, surely the two bigger parts suppliers we all use, plus other stores, pr###k as an example, would be interested in taking a good number thus helping to shift the suggested production number of 100.
atb, martintheveg.