FYI: if you own a WEBLEY Mk3 or BSA AIRSPORTER re 'MAINSPRINGS'

[chieffool]

I've got a thread going ref the difficulty i've faced trying to find best replacement washer and spring for my Webley Mk3.
That is NOT what this post is about (though you can find it on: http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....Washer-Advice)

HOWEVER: Re SPRINGS - (as a recently 'born-again-airgunner') i am told (as a general statement) that "...older models like softer springs".
Cries of 'Don't fit a Titan' and 'modern springs are too stiff' still echo in my ears.

And I personally believe it. Which is odd because both Protek and (Knibbs International) Airgunspares now only seem to stock 'Titan' for this model - an opinion I have formed based on sourcing what appears to be the same spring from both in an attempt to find one that works. In each case the product i've received IS stiffer, twangy, oversprung....
...in short: not much of a replacement.

As a result, i'm testing, i'm shortening by cutting bits off... ...i'm basically fiddling and faffing around trying to get something that works - which is WHY i have TWO questions i would like you to answer or comment on:

1. Does ANYBODY like these newer/stiffer springs for these air rifles? PLEASE - be honest, 'cos i really want to know.
My question could obviously be directed to the owners of lots of different air rifles, but initially i'd just like to direct it to two models that i know were produced for a long time (decades) in large volumes and (realistically) have reached an age where 'mainspring performance' is a potential issue.

2. Can some of you supply info (you can stop obviously when we get to the right figures) on how many of just these two particular models were made?

The reason for question 2 is simple. If the answer to question 1 is "NO - we don't 'like' the newer/stiffer springs and lament the demise of the old ones", then i believe i have found a specialist UK spring manufacturer who is possibly willing to make the type we want (which won't need all this f@kkin' about) - and because of that they want to know the kind of potential market volume of owners who might find this of interest.

Well.... i know how much the 'stiffer/modern' versions are....
...so what would the potential market be for this type of spring?
...and (MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL based on question 1) is it really wanted or needed?

AND: if it turns out that everything i've said above is daft - my apologies: but at least i'll finally have an answer!

[Dan944]

I would personally add that I had the same problem as you did and as I said before I ended up modding mine allot and turning it into one of my many projects. Long stroking, modern parachute seal Ect Ect.

I also found that most springs nowadays are too stiff and I have been looking for a softer manufacturer also, so I for one would be interested in 1 or 2 or maybe 5 of these softer springs.

Daniel

[flatrajectory]

I've got a thread going ref the difficulty i've faced trying to find best replacement washer and spring for my Webley Mk3.
That is NOT what this post is about (though you can find it on: http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....Washer-Advice)

HOWEVER: Re SPRINGS - (as a recently 'born-again-airgunner') i am told (as a general statement) that "...older models like softer springs".
Cries of 'Don't fit a Titan' and 'modern springs are too stiff' still echo in my ears.

And I personally believe it. Which is odd because both Protek and (Knibbs International) Airgunspares now only seem to stock 'Titan' for this model - an opinion I have formed based on sourcing what appears to be the same spring from both in an attempt to find one that works. In each case the product i've received IS stiffer, twangy, oversprung....
...in short: not much of a replacement.

As a result, i'm testing, i'm shortening by cutting bits off... ...i'm basically fiddling and faffing around trying to get something that works - which is WHY i have TWO questions i would like you to answer or comment on:

1. Does ANYBODY like these newer/stiffer springs for these air rifles? PLEASE - be honest, 'cos i really want to know.
My question could obviously be directed to the owners of lots of different air rifles, but initially i'd just like to direct it to two models that i know were produced for a long time (decades) in large volumes and (realistically) have reached an age where 'mainspring performance' is a potential issue.

2. Can some of you supply info (you can stop obviously when we get to the right figures) on how many of just these two particular models were made?

The reason for question 2 is simple. If the answer to question 1 is "NO - we don't 'like' the newer/stiffer springs and lament the demise of the old ones", then i believe i have found a specialist UK spring manufacturer who is possibly willing to make the type we want (which won't need all this f@kkin' about) - and because of that they want to know the kind of potential market volume of owners who might find this of interest.

Well.... i know how much the 'stiffer/modern' versions are....
...so what would the potential market be for this type of spring?
...and (MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL based on question 1) is it really wanted or needed?

AND: if it turns out that everything i've said above is daft - my apologies: but at least i'll finally have an answer!

Here's my two penn'orth Richard.

We must assume that Webley, BSA, etc. know how to make a decent air gun and in assuming that they do they would have used the most appropriate mainspring that was available at the time, or ....the spring that their designers decided would be correct for the rifle in question.
What you have to remember is that back in the 1950's an air rifle was just a tool for despatching vermin, also.....in those days men were men, so if the said air rifle required a bit of effort to cock and had ' a bit of recoil' it would be accepted widely by it's target audience.
Now leap forward 60 years.
Air rifle designers have given us air rifles that are easy to cock ( relative to the older guns) and have a lot less recoill. This is due to modern rifles having lighter pistons thus requiring less spring. Also .....modern synthetic piston seals are superior to leather cup washers. Please note these are generalisations for purpose of clarity.

Most collectors of the older rifles we are talking about do not shoot them often or in a hunting environment. They are brought out accasionaly , shot a few times then put back in the display case/ safe.
Therefore, I do not think that there would be enough interest for a spring maker to manufacture a replacement spring.....not enough to make a decent proffit on anyway.
Said owners of Webley mk.3 's / Airsporters etc. Are quite happy to shoot them as the maker intended, and the stiff cocking and firm recoil are accepted......" they were always like that".

I personally do not like the newer,stiffer mainsprings. I would do what I suspect most owners who shoot their classic rifles a lot would do, and that is......try several different springs from different guns until I found one that I liked and bung that in.
Over to you viewers...
Pete.

[chieffool]

This all started because I was intrigued that a new spring supplied as the direct replacement from two suppliers (see other thread for this by the way) doesn't work as well as the old knackered spring. I love my Webley Mk3. Its serial is 9350 - bought new by my dad and (probably) one of the first things i ever shot. It is older than me, and deserves a replacement part (specially one as fundamental as the mainspring) that is suitable.

This isn't about trying to get it to perform better than originally intended - it is about finding the part to suit the gun as originally designed.

I really appreciate your input (i liked your comments and help on the other thread too) - but wouldn't it be nice to get a spring that matches the original spec?

Any idea how many other owners are out there?
I know someone has got figures from a book i don't have?


[Incidentally: ...the sales office at this spring manufacturer considers one hundred units a feasible production run]

[felix gunner]

This all started because I was intrigued that a new spring supplied as the direct replacement from two suppliers (see other thread for this by the way) doesn't work as well as the old knackered spring. I love my Webley Mk3. Its serial is 9350 - bought new by my dad and (probably) one of the first things i ever shot. It is older than me, and deserves a replacement part (specially one as fundamental as the mainspring) that is suitable.

This isn't about trying to get it to perform better than originally intended - it is about finding the part to suit the gun as originally designed.

I really appreciate your input (i liked your comments and help on the other thread too) - but wouldn't it be nice to get a spring that matches the original spec?

Any idea how many other owners are out there?
I know someone has got figures from a book i don't have?




[Incidentally: ...the sales office at this spring manufacturer considers one hundred units a feasible production run]

Here, here! See my recent topic on Webley pistol springs too.

I think though, it will be difficult to carbon copy the original in feel and performance. There must be so many variables in steel composition, wire gauge, wire profile, heating, 'coiling' method etc. I'm sure the 'originals' probably varied a fair bit too over the production period?

[chieffool]

Here, here! See my recent topic on Webley pistol springs too.

I think though, it will be difficult to carbon copy the original in feel and performance. There must be so many variables in steel composition, wire gauge, wire profile, heating, 'coiling' method etc. I'm sure the 'originals' probably varied a fair bit too over the production period?

From what i understand from the manufacturer i've shown these to and whom i spoke to for info (and it helps that the sales manager seems to be a keen air gunner...) the technique in 'metallurgy' terms is basically unchanged (ie heat treating and tempering spring steal) - but the materials used are more 'high tech' now because modern springs in general terms are designed to perform better. That doesn't mean you can't make an 'older/softer' spring - just that 'people' don't tend to ask for them: "hey - can you make this out of a cheaper steel so its weaker and performs less efficiently....?"

[chieffool]

Found this on my researches - via a post on another site:

"Hi. A little more info for anyone that is interested; on the legendary Webley MK III. Production ended W/E 6-12-1975. The last gun was '' F6547 '' .177 cal. made by '' DAVID ''. I can confirm this because I have a photo copy of the bench hands own 'day-book'; this was a book that the workforce kept as their own record of production as they were on the old ''piece-work'' system and had a mistrust of the management not paying out the correct wages. The book is the second of two; the first one vanished way back in time, I was told it never covered the very early production years and have no idea when it was started, sadly despite untold hours of searching the first book has never come to light; however the second book starts W/E 7-11-1964; first gun No:- 44370 cal. not readable; made by '' JOE '' who was a '' leading bench hand '' on the MK III section right up to the end of production. There is a major problem with dating many MK III's because Webley went from 'numbers only', to letter prefixing firstly with the letter 'A' also 'B' and of course 'F': 'C' / 'D' / 'E' were never used; the guys said the firm was ''too tight'' to buy the relevant punches, the problem is that they used 'A' twice ??; so even with this book .22 cal guns were in such large quantities that they appear twice with 'A' prefix's and so are almost impossible to date with certainty."


So: if they only ran numerical serials up to w/e 7-11-1964, serial no: 44,370... [first 17 years]
...and the Mark3 ran from 1947 to 1975...[next 11 years]
...How many guns?
Can we assume c. 60,000+ total run?

That's potentially quite a lot of guns (if still surviving) ranging from 40 to 67+ years...!

[Phil Russell]

In short .. I am a little tired of having to doctor some after market springs, in particular Titan black coated ones. I have no doubt they are good quality but I have yet to find one that is a direct replacement i.e. no cutting / refinishing and will give output within 12 ft lbs. They all seem to be 'over' and at times require supreme effort to fit ... always a bad sign in my book. So if I have to, I do cut and refinish.
Is there a market for softer springs? Maybe, but I do not know how many might potentially be sold. One of the reasons I started colecting data on the springs fitted as original spec to old and current guns was in the hope that if I needed a new spring I could find one from a current gun that would fit, and hopefully not be a 'Titan' breed. In furtherance of this objective I have tried to get some 'magazine rifle service/tuners' to publish the spec of the spring from the rifles they strip. I have not yet succeeded, even though the efort to measure the spring would be, I feel, minimal but of great value.
I wonder what Jim Tyler uses for his 'softer' springs ... I will ask if I see him at the Show in a few days time.

I was pondering sourcing springs from a manufacturer a few days ago. There are several around offering carbon steel or stainless steel springs in airgun sizes (or close to) but no prices. Most offered a 'made to measure' service but none gave prices. I did not follow up on my search as I had no real idea of what spec I would be asked for, except wire diam and id / od, pitch and length dimensions. In the end I came to the conclusion that for the number of springs I use it would not be economical.

So ... this is a worthy initiative but I am not sure of the market. I would use maybe 12 - 15 per year, generally of the Airsporter / Meteor type sizes plus some (maybe 4) of Meteor type size but smaller wire diameter .. say 2.8mm.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Phil

[chieffool]

it ALL helps. Odd though - isn't it?!

If my brief calculation above is right for Webley Mk3 of 60,000+ production run (ANYONE KNOW BETTER?)....
...and BSA Airsporter where similar - wouldn't 100,000+ (playing safe) potential guns at least 40 years old be a potential market?

I realise many have simply faded away, forgotten. And that others may be in the hands of people who aren't interested - but equally i think it fair to suggest that those that do remain in 'active' ownership might be in the hands of dedicated owners...

JUST OUT OF INTEREST: have 'we' (the forum) ever considered a research questionnaire (possibly anonymous) to all members asking what they own? I know many 'sign' their posts with lists of their metal - but do we have a census?

[felix gunner]

JUST OUT OF INTEREST: have 'we' (the forum) ever considered a research questionnaire (possibly anonymous) to all members asking what they own? I know many 'sign' their posts with lists of their metal - but do we have a census?

A very good idea, needs to be anonymous though of course and as a snapshot poll - I think the choices in the list of 'Do you own X?' might be ridiculously long though.

[chieffool]

Certainly: Anonymous.
it doesn't necessarily have to be 100% comprehensive - otherwise you truly will be there 'forever' trying to compile.

I even think there are sort of 'forum tools' which could allow a member (in an ideal world) to log on - go to site - register a 'tick box' list (like a voting mechanic almost).....

...perhaps doing lists by manufacturer....

.... or perhaps (as in this instance): centering on a set of specific guns to solve an issue or test a market:

ie List No 1 "Vintage and antique Springers".
Got to be good for Webley and BSA alone as a starting point?
(eg BSA: Lincoln Jeffries, Model D & B, Standard, Light.... through breakers to Airsporter, and for Webley: Mk1 & 2 service, Mk3, etc).
All Old/Classic/Antique - and all facing similar spring supply issues?

[wonky donky]

Titan springs were introduced iirc as Titan XS many years ago when we generally knew very little of the complicated physics of the airgun. The OX & Titan were supposed to increase the power of your airgun, with the Titan being marketed as having this great anti slip coating.

All in all neither is a direct replacement for any manufacturers spring, all in except a few cases they just oversprung the rifle as very few rifles at the time actually had the potential of exceeding 12fpe.

As for spring quality the Titan wire is superb, the coating, I have my doudts about it's usefulness tbh, if nothing else it's a sales gimmick!

The wire the MK3 spring was made from will be imperial, not metric so 1/8" then? Pre- load is measured as soon as you start to unscrew the trigger block ie. The bottom of the thread inside the cylinder to the top of the spring after the block is removed...I'm not trying to teach my Granny, it's surprising how many get this wrong!

29 coils of 1/8" wire with a free length of 240/250mm will make the spring far too stiff. i think the originals were 225mm with 30 coils. I always removed a coil usually increasing the power a little as the rifle was oversprung right from the get go!

Coils are counted from the first complete turn, find the end of the wire, follow it round & where it meets itself, that's one coil, LIKE THIS then continue up the spring, when you reach the other end its often part of a coil ie. 0.5 or 0.75 of a coil. LIKE THIS This is important as it adds to pre-load. Again not trying to teach my granny.

What I suggest is a spring with 3.2mm or 1/8" wire, 26/29 coils with a free length of 190/200mm. Put one M10 steel washer into the bottom of the piston for the spring to twist & try that.

Last time I serviced a MK3 my records tell me I used 26 coils, 190 f/l 3,2mm wire giving a Vo of approx 650fps using RWS Superdome in a .177. Not far from the marketing litrature iirc may be a bit more?

I can soon make one up for you to try.

Cocking the MK3 is never going to be a 2 finger effort, they were never easy from new. I have seen many MK3 cocking levers bent after continual use due to the effort required with the standard factory spring.

Hope this helps.

[draitzer]

I've had this same problem in 25 years of fixing old airguns, mostly long-obsolete models. Jim Maccari aka 'the spring man' in the U.S. has been a great resource for springs but he doesn't list all the dimensions of his offerings. Just today I found that the Vortek website is offering a variety of springs with all dimensions shown (Vortek's Tom Gore is best known for gas-spring kits to suit modern guns):
http://vortekproducts.com/ourstore/a...ir-Gun-Springs

I've bought used springs off _bay and out of odds-boxes at airgun shows which have been useful for old guns, and likely some OEM springs from current or recent guns will suit our vintage guns. But it would be really convenient to have original spring dimensions for various models so we'd know a) what the original specs were in the old guns, and b) what current springs would work as replacements.

As to "old vs modern metallurgy", this is really not an issue: higher-strength springs with better manufacturing methods simply allow for running closer to the stress limit of the material without early fatigue failure. A spring's RATE (force/deflection) depends ONLY on dimensions, as the elastic modulus of all types of steel is virtually identical.

Don R.

[ccdjg]

There is a possible alternative approach to the problem of finding replacement springs and that is to recondition the original spring. Provided it has no hidden stress cracks or excessive corrosion then it should be restorable to its former glory. This would involve first annealing it, then putting it back in the gun and compressing it in its soft state to straighten it and even up the coil spacing, then stretching it to the required length, and finally hardening and tempering it at the appropriate temperature. The only real difficulty is the hardening and tempering stage, for which you really need a temperature controlled furnace, but if you can find a friendly engineer with access to such a thing, you could easily do the rest yourself. I have made a few springs myself, and provided you temper them slightly soft they will not crack. The slight softness is not a problem unless you like to leave your guns cocked for long periods.

[martintheveg]

Chieffool, I would certainly be interested in a couple of mk 3 springs for my two. I am a total newbie but hope to be able to strip and clean both my rifes in the very near future when I have learnt more.
If the production run of these springs eventually materialises, great idea that it is, surely the two bigger parts suppliers we all use, plus other stores, pr###k as an example, would be interested in taking a good number thus helping to shift the suggested production number of 100.
atb, martintheveg.