FYI: if you own a WEBLEY Mk3 or BSA AIRSPORTER re 'MAINSPRINGS'

[chieffool]

I've got a thread going ref the difficulty i've faced trying to find best replacement washer and spring for my Webley Mk3.
That is NOT what this post is about (though you can find it on: http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....Washer-Advice)

HOWEVER: Re SPRINGS - (as a recently 'born-again-airgunner') i am told (as a general statement) that "...older models like softer springs".
Cries of 'Don't fit a Titan' and 'modern springs are too stiff' still echo in my ears.

And I personally believe it. Which is odd because both Protek and (Knibbs International) Airgunspares now only seem to stock 'Titan' for this model - an opinion I have formed based on sourcing what appears to be the same spring from both in an attempt to find one that works. In each case the product i've received IS stiffer, twangy, oversprung....
...in short: not much of a replacement.

As a result, i'm testing, i'm shortening by cutting bits off... ...i'm basically fiddling and faffing around trying to get something that works - which is WHY i have TWO questions i would like you to answer or comment on:

1. Does ANYBODY like these newer/stiffer springs for these air rifles? PLEASE - be honest, 'cos i really want to know.
My question could obviously be directed to the owners of lots of different air rifles, but initially i'd just like to direct it to two models that i know were produced for a long time (decades) in large volumes and (realistically) have reached an age where 'mainspring performance' is a potential issue.

2. Can some of you supply info (you can stop obviously when we get to the right figures) on how many of just these two particular models were made?

The reason for question 2 is simple. If the answer to question 1 is "NO - we don't 'like' the newer/stiffer springs and lament the demise of the old ones", then i believe i have found a specialist UK spring manufacturer who is possibly willing to make the type we want (which won't need all this f@kkin' about) - and because of that they want to know the kind of potential market volume of owners who might find this of interest.

Well.... i know how much the 'stiffer/modern' versions are....
...so what would the potential market be for this type of spring?
...and (MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL based on question 1) is it really wanted or needed?

AND: if it turns out that everything i've said above is daft - my apologies: but at least i'll finally have an answer!

[Dan944]

I would personally add that I had the same problem as you did and as I said before I ended up modding mine allot and turning it into one of my many projects. Long stroking, modern parachute seal Ect Ect.

I also found that most springs nowadays are too stiff and I have been looking for a softer manufacturer also, so I for one would be interested in 1 or 2 or maybe 5 of these softer springs.

Daniel

[flatrajectory]

I've got a thread going ref the difficulty i've faced trying to find best replacement washer and spring for my Webley Mk3.
That is NOT what this post is about (though you can find it on: http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....Washer-Advice)

HOWEVER: Re SPRINGS - (as a recently 'born-again-airgunner') i am told (as a general statement) that "...older models like softer springs".
Cries of 'Don't fit a Titan' and 'modern springs are too stiff' still echo in my ears.

And I personally believe it. Which is odd because both Protek and (Knibbs International) Airgunspares now only seem to stock 'Titan' for this model - an opinion I have formed based on sourcing what appears to be the same spring from both in an attempt to find one that works. In each case the product i've received IS stiffer, twangy, oversprung....
...in short: not much of a replacement.

As a result, i'm testing, i'm shortening by cutting bits off... ...i'm basically fiddling and faffing around trying to get something that works - which is WHY i have TWO questions i would like you to answer or comment on:

1. Does ANYBODY like these newer/stiffer springs for these air rifles? PLEASE - be honest, 'cos i really want to know.
My question could obviously be directed to the owners of lots of different air rifles, but initially i'd just like to direct it to two models that i know were produced for a long time (decades) in large volumes and (realistically) have reached an age where 'mainspring performance' is a potential issue.

2. Can some of you supply info (you can stop obviously when we get to the right figures) on how many of just these two particular models were made?

The reason for question 2 is simple. If the answer to question 1 is "NO - we don't 'like' the newer/stiffer springs and lament the demise of the old ones", then i believe i have found a specialist UK spring manufacturer who is possibly willing to make the type we want (which won't need all this f@kkin' about) - and because of that they want to know the kind of potential market volume of owners who might find this of interest.

Well.... i know how much the 'stiffer/modern' versions are....
...so what would the potential market be for this type of spring?
...and (MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL based on question 1) is it really wanted or needed?

AND: if it turns out that everything i've said above is daft - my apologies: but at least i'll finally have an answer!

Here's my two penn'orth Richard.

We must assume that Webley, BSA, etc. know how to make a decent air gun and in assuming that they do they would have used the most appropriate mainspring that was available at the time, or ....the spring that their designers decided would be correct for the rifle in question.
What you have to remember is that back in the 1950's an air rifle was just a tool for despatching vermin, also.....in those days men were men, so if the said air rifle required a bit of effort to cock and had ' a bit of recoil' it would be accepted widely by it's target audience.
Now leap forward 60 years.
Air rifle designers have given us air rifles that are easy to cock ( relative to the older guns) and have a lot less recoill. This is due to modern rifles having lighter pistons thus requiring less spring. Also .....modern synthetic piston seals are superior to leather cup washers. Please note these are generalisations for purpose of clarity.

Most collectors of the older rifles we are talking about do not shoot them often or in a hunting environment. They are brought out accasionaly , shot a few times then put back in the display case/ safe.
Therefore, I do not think that there would be enough interest for a spring maker to manufacture a replacement spring.....not enough to make a decent proffit on anyway.
Said owners of Webley mk.3 's / Airsporters etc. Are quite happy to shoot them as the maker intended, and the stiff cocking and firm recoil are accepted......" they were always like that".

I personally do not like the newer,stiffer mainsprings. I would do what I suspect most owners who shoot their classic rifles a lot would do, and that is......try several different springs from different guns until I found one that I liked and bung that in.
Over to you viewers...
Pete.

[chieffool]

This all started because I was intrigued that a new spring supplied as the direct replacement from two suppliers (see other thread for this by the way) doesn't work as well as the old knackered spring. I love my Webley Mk3. Its serial is 9350 - bought new by my dad and (probably) one of the first things i ever shot. It is older than me, and deserves a replacement part (specially one as fundamental as the mainspring) that is suitable.

This isn't about trying to get it to perform better than originally intended - it is about finding the part to suit the gun as originally designed.

I really appreciate your input (i liked your comments and help on the other thread too) - but wouldn't it be nice to get a spring that matches the original spec?

Any idea how many other owners are out there?
I know someone has got figures from a book i don't have?


[Incidentally: ...the sales office at this spring manufacturer considers one hundred units a feasible production run]

[felix gunner]

This all started because I was intrigued that a new spring supplied as the direct replacement from two suppliers (see other thread for this by the way) doesn't work as well as the old knackered spring. I love my Webley Mk3. Its serial is 9350 - bought new by my dad and (probably) one of the first things i ever shot. It is older than me, and deserves a replacement part (specially one as fundamental as the mainspring) that is suitable.

This isn't about trying to get it to perform better than originally intended - it is about finding the part to suit the gun as originally designed.

I really appreciate your input (i liked your comments and help on the other thread too) - but wouldn't it be nice to get a spring that matches the original spec?

Any idea how many other owners are out there?
I know someone has got figures from a book i don't have?




[Incidentally: ...the sales office at this spring manufacturer considers one hundred units a feasible production run]

Here, here! See my recent topic on Webley pistol springs too.

I think though, it will be difficult to carbon copy the original in feel and performance. There must be so many variables in steel composition, wire gauge, wire profile, heating, 'coiling' method etc. I'm sure the 'originals' probably varied a fair bit too over the production period?

[chieffool]

Here, here! See my recent topic on Webley pistol springs too.

I think though, it will be difficult to carbon copy the original in feel and performance. There must be so many variables in steel composition, wire gauge, wire profile, heating, 'coiling' method etc. I'm sure the 'originals' probably varied a fair bit too over the production period?

From what i understand from the manufacturer i've shown these to and whom i spoke to for info (and it helps that the sales manager seems to be a keen air gunner...) the technique in 'metallurgy' terms is basically unchanged (ie heat treating and tempering spring steal) - but the materials used are more 'high tech' now because modern springs in general terms are designed to perform better. That doesn't mean you can't make an 'older/softer' spring - just that 'people' don't tend to ask for them: "hey - can you make this out of a cheaper steel so its weaker and performs less efficiently....?"

[chieffool]

Found this on my researches - via a post on another site:

"Hi. A little more info for anyone that is interested; on the legendary Webley MK III. Production ended W/E 6-12-1975. The last gun was '' F6547 '' .177 cal. made by '' DAVID ''. I can confirm this because I have a photo copy of the bench hands own 'day-book'; this was a book that the workforce kept as their own record of production as they were on the old ''piece-work'' system and had a mistrust of the management not paying out the correct wages. The book is the second of two; the first one vanished way back in time, I was told it never covered the very early production years and have no idea when it was started, sadly despite untold hours of searching the first book has never come to light; however the second book starts W/E 7-11-1964; first gun No:- 44370 cal. not readable; made by '' JOE '' who was a '' leading bench hand '' on the MK III section right up to the end of production. There is a major problem with dating many MK III's because Webley went from 'numbers only', to letter prefixing firstly with the letter 'A' also 'B' and of course 'F': 'C' / 'D' / 'E' were never used; the guys said the firm was ''too tight'' to buy the relevant punches, the problem is that they used 'A' twice ??; so even with this book .22 cal guns were in such large quantities that they appear twice with 'A' prefix's and so are almost impossible to date with certainty."


So: if they only ran numerical serials up to w/e 7-11-1964, serial no: 44,370... [first 17 years]
...and the Mark3 ran from 1947 to 1975...[next 11 years]
...How many guns?
Can we assume c. 60,000+ total run?

That's potentially quite a lot of guns (if still surviving) ranging from 40 to 67+ years...!