FYI: if you own a WEBLEY Mk3 or BSA AIRSPORTER re 'MAINSPRINGS'

[Phil Russell]

Thanks Wonky Donky for the information. I think my measure of preload equals yours ... I generally assess with the spring in its free state in the cylinder. Preload is then how much the spring has to compress to get the trigger block or retaining block etc back in place.
With the HW rifles, a short length of spring at the cylinder end means you can engage the block threads with ease... joy!
With regard to 1/8 wire and 3.2mm. No problems but I note that their are many rifles needing a wire less than 3.2mm ... some 3mm and I know from experience that the .2mm can make a difference. Some original springs are 2.8mm (think HW55 and some early prewar Dianas) Also, a 3mm wire spring is often wound to a smaller od than a 3.2mm one such that a 3.2mm one does not fit. Iguess that the smaller od of the 3mm wire makes it as stiff as the larger od 3.2mm one? I have never tested this.

Regarding original sizes ... when I put my mainspring database together, I took a lot of sizes from Cobham's book. He lists 3.25mm for the Mk3 ... so 1/8".

Cheers, Phil

[chieffool]

KEEP THE COMMENTS COMING GUYS.... The STORY SO FAR:

Initial Thoughts:
I wanted to find a way of gauging the market, but (inevitably) this will involve conversations with (i would suggest): Chambers, Protek, Airgunsupplies - and the 'benefit' to them getting involved to meet the initial order is 'exclusivity' to start. ie (unless they agree otherwise) only one of them can have access to the stock. I believe the concept is called 'competition'.

SO:
any thoughts on potential market size?

So far (in the comments above) we seem to have gleaned:

....new springs are stiffer and don't match older/classic/vintage/antique guns...

....no one has access to the specifications of the original springs (though i am sure we will be able to trace some unused old/new stock examples for 'measuring'...

....NO ONE (so far) has actually come forward and said they like the new/stiffer springs...

....to fit any of these you need to fiddle, cut, alter, even consider making (or remaking) your own - in short: none of them is even close to being an effective replacement, yet they are sold by all the major air gun parts outlets as the 'recommended replacement'...



QUESTION: does anyone know of an effective source for these type of springs - AND is 'getting them made' a viable answer?

Remember: This isn't about trying to get these guns to perform better than originally intended - it is about finding the part to suit the gun as originally designed (and appropriate to their age).

[chieffool]

Titan springs were introduced iirc as Titan XS many years ago.....
....As for spring quality the Titan wire is superb, the coating, I have my doudts about it's usefulness tbh, if nothing else it's a sales gimmick!...
....The wire the MK3 spring was made from will be imperial, not metric so 1/8" then? ...
....Pre- load is measured as soon as you start to unscrew the trigger block ie. The bottom of the thread inside the cylinder to the top of the spring after the block is removed...I'm not trying to teach my Granny, it's surprising how many get this wrong!
...
29 coils of 1/8" wire with a free length of 240/250mm will make the spring far too stiff. i think the originals were 225mm with 30 coils. I always removed a coil usually increasing the power a little as the rifle was oversprung right from the get go!

Coils are counted from the first complete turn, find the end of the wire, follow it round & where it meets itself, that's one coil, LIKE THIS then continue up the spring, when you reach the other end its often part of a coil ie. 0.5 or 0.75 of a coil. LIKE THIS This is important as it adds to pre-load. Again not trying to teach my granny.

What I suggest is a spring with 3.2mm or 1/8" wire, 26/29 coils with a free length of 190/200mm. Put one M10 steel washer into the bottom of the piston for the spring to twist & try that.

Last time I serviced a MK3 my records tell me I used 26 coils, 190 f/l 3,2mm wire giving a Vo of approx 650fps using RWS Superdome in a .177. Not far from the marketing litrature iirc may be a bit more?

I can soon make one up for you to try.

Cocking the MK3 is never going to be a 2 finger effort, they were never easy from new. I have seen many MK3 cocking levers bent after continual use due to the effort required with the standard factory spring.

Hope this helps.

WHAT A STAR!!!!
Many, many thanks. I'm still doing chrono tests taking off one coil at a time.... and the results are not encouraging.
BUT - based on the above, i think (hope) the figures will get better in about 4 x coils time!

[wonky donky]

Thanks Wonky Donky for the information. I think my measure of preload equals yours ... I generally assess with the spring in its free state in the cylinder. Preload is then how much the spring has to compress to get the trigger block or retaining block etc back in place.
With the HW rifles, a short length of spring at the cylinder end means you can engage the block threads with ease... joy!
With regard to 1/8 wire and 3.2mm. No problems but I note that their are many rifles needing a wire less than 3.2mm ... some 3mm and I know from experience that the .2mm can make a difference. Some original springs are 2.8mm (think HW55 and some early prewar Dianas) Also, a 3mm wire spring is often wound to a smaller od than a 3.2mm one such that a 3.2mm one does not fit. Iguess that the smaller od of the 3mm wire makes it as stiff as the larger od 3.2mm one? I have never tested this.

Regarding original sizes ... when I put my mainspring database together, I took a lot of sizes from Cobham's book. He lists 3.25mm for the Mk3 ... so 1/8".

Cheers, Phil

Absolutely spot on Phil, as usual. For old English guns that appear to have 3.0mm wire, they are probably wound from .116 wire, well I know they are!

German guns are as you say as are most modern guns, metric.

Narrower 3.0mm i/d wire springs vs 3.2mm wire wider i/d can be similar stiffness ( springs are measured using the i/d for airguns)

The key is DON'T OVER SPRING A GUN! COCKING EFFORT AFTER THAT IS DUE TO FULCRUMS & LEVERAGE AVAILABLE.

[wonky donky]

WHAT A STAR!!!!
Many, many thanks. I'm still doing chrono tests taking off one coil at a time.... and the results are not encouraging.
BUT - based on the above, i think (hope) the figures will get better in about 4 x coils time!

You need to make sure you don't have a large leak at the tap, test it first! Cock the rifle, open the tap & whilst holding the cocking lever with at least as much force used to cock it, pull the trigger holding the lever letting it close slowly, you should be able to close the lever before the air has all leaked out.

A good seal will not let the piston move forward all the way until the tap is closed, sometimes untill you shut the tap, one that leaks as you close the lever is not so good. You will know the difference. A very leaky breech will sap power like no tomorrow!

Also I'm not sure what spring your cutting down but it sounds like you have other issues to me?

[Phil Russell]

If of interest, Cobham lists the following for the Mk3: Wire 3.25mm, Coils 29, Od 21.5mm, id 15mm, length 210mm.

Also another snippet for Titan: The Titan No. 7 is listed as fitting the HW50, 55, 57. I tried one in my HW55T restoration project and the original spring guide ... a typical early HW steel cross end jobby ... would not fit into the spring. No iffs or buts or pushing ... the spring had too narrow an id and it would have needed the original guide reducing to make it fit. I did not do this but sourced a proper size spring.

Cheers, Phil

[wonky donky]

KEEP THE COMMENTS COMING GUYS.... The STORY SO FAR:

Initial Thoughts:
I wanted to find a way of gauging the market, but (inevitably) this will involve conversations with (i would suggest): Chambers, Protek, Airgunsupplies - and the 'benefit' to them getting involved to meet the initial order is 'exclusivity' to start. ie (unless they agree otherwise) only one of them can have access to the stock. I believe the concept is called 'competition'.

SO:
any thoughts on potential market size?

So far (in the comments above) we seem to have gleaned:

....new springs are stiffer and don't match older/classic/vintage/antique guns...

....no one has access to the specifications of the original springs (though i am sure we will be able to trace some unused old/new stock examples for 'measuring'...

....NO ONE (so far) has actually come forward and said they like the new/stiffer springs...

....to fit any of these you need to fiddle, cut, alter, even consider making (or remaking) your own - in short: none of them is even close to being an effective replacement, yet they are sold by all the major air gun parts outlets as the 'recommended replacement'...



QUESTION: does anyone know of an effective source for these type of springs - AND is 'getting them made' a viable answer?

Remember: This isn't about trying to get these guns to perform better than originally intended - it is about finding the part to suit the gun as originally designed (and appropriate to their age).

1 you have not tried a modern after market replacement spring from what i can see? A titan is not a direct replacement, it's almost a "one spring does all-or many!

2 if you have a HW80 on FAC a Titan is fine! John Knibbs sell Titan because John Knibbs IS TITAN!

3 Protek probably sell Titan because they don't have to stock many springs with the one fits many concept & this probably goes for other retailers.

4 the specification are there.

There are lots more suppliers out there, try Helston, I know chambers do a MK3 copy too.

As for getting single "one offs" made, or more, provided you know the dimensions I can probably oblige at no greater cost than a TITAN! but you would have to wait a while due to low volume.

[deejayuu]

Great input from the experts. Many thanks just what we need.
So my '59 has a spring which appears original at 210 mm though a bit bent. Certainly been in there 30 yrs plus for me to know.
My '65 has lost 10 mm also a bit bent. Definitely the original been seen once before in 50 years.


Now what do the tuners make of the compression mechanics which are according to me;
Bore 27.5 mm, Stroke 67 mm, TP dia. 5.5, TP length 19mm !! double checked and sober but will do it again in the morning.

I feel some changes coming on!

[chieffool]

1 you have not tried a modern after market replacement spring from what i can see? A titan is not a direct replacement, it's almost a "one spring does all-or many!

I'll happily try the others you suggested. I started with Knibbs because that was the suggestion from the forum i read. I now know they used to sell new/old stock (but eventually ran out). So when I clicked the relevant bits on their website and got:
http://www.airgunspares.com/store/pr...el-Model-IV-E/

THE DESCRIPTION SAID: "Webley Mk2 & Mk3 Mainspring Part No. AR40 Anschutz 250 280 335 & Haenel Model IV E"
ALSO described as: "Fits: Webley Mk2 Service & Webley Mk3 Underlever"

...and after that arrived and i found it was not suitable at all - i then went to Protek - and ended up with the same spring! At least i got my money back on the last one.

I've now been offered an original Webley spring which is (hopefully) coming in from someone following this [Many thanks to Barry] - all the way from New Zealand.
What a nice bunch this forum seems to attract - and i thank everyone of you for your input and assistance.

PS - i'm fairly convinced (at the moment) that the seal at the tap is good.

[chieffool]

.....Also I'm not sure what spring your cutting down but it sounds like you have other issues to me?....

The spring is the AR40 part from Knibbs (sold as the suggested replacement spring for Webley mk3 amongst others) - and based on the figures you've supplied, if i remove 4.75 coils i will get a 26 coil spring @190mm.

[NB: Before this I was trying cutting half coils off to see if the chrono results would give me any form of developing pattern - but have given up as can't seem to get viable/consistant data]

[chieffool]

....There are lots more suppliers out there, try Helston, I know chambers do a MK3 copy too....

Just checked:
Chambers quote £14.14 for "MS058 - Airgun Standard Mainspring - Genuine Webley"
Helston don't offer a part for the Webley Mk3 [though they do offer for the more modern Hawk, Falcon, Osprey & Vulcan].

[chieffool]

Just heard from a forum member in NEW ZEALAND who has sent me a new/old webley spring.! will be with me next week., and so appreciate it.
Will let you all know final results after testing and fitting.

Separate thread (ref tests on different washer replacements available) and stages to fit subject to another thread if anyone needs to refer in case in the same 'novice' position as i was at the start - and want to keep an old and treasured gun in good working condition:
http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....-Washer-Advice

[abellringer]

Firstly from personal experience, the makers of these older guns often used parts that can be damaged or broken when fitting the newer stiffer mainsprings, that is if you ever get one that actually just fits, without modifying it. I always recall conversations with designers in the 60's & 70's who said [rightly or wrongly] you only get about 1/3 of the springs power out of the muzzle, and we like to have a 'shootable' gun, balancing power - to - feel, strangely, I have no recollection of TP's in the conversations. I have come across guns severely damaged from higher power springs, so no I do not recommend them and would only fit one after explaining the pitfalls to an owner.

I have measured half a dozen brand new unused MKIII mainsprings C/W their red paper W & S tags; the data is as follows:-
O/A length 9.75" +/- 0.06" ;;;; O/D 0.844" to 0.847" ;;;; 10SWG [0.128"] wire ;;;; 30 Coils +/- 1/4 turn closed and ground both ends ;;;; [measured as per wonkydonky's recommendation in this thread]

As for quantities made of Airsporters and MKIII's I have no info on Airsporters other than what is available generally; however on MKIII's I can offer some info.
Assuming unbroken production from No. 1 ;;;; 1 to 50059 [W/E 4/6/1966]
First Series 'A' ;;;; A0060 [3/6/1966] to A9999 [W/E 22/11/1969]
Second Series 'A' ;;;; A1 [22/11/1969] to A10000 [W/E 5/8/1972]
Series 'B' ;;;; B1 [26/8/1972] to B10000 [W/E 8/2/1975]
Series 'F' ;;;; F1 [10/2/1975] to F6547 [ 6/12/1975] this is the last recorded MKIII listed as made [unless anyone can prove otherwise]

These numbers are taken from a 'day book' kept by the bench hands on the MKIII section; the book is badly oil stained and not easy to read in some areas and there are some 'oddities'' towards the end with out of sequence numbers and what appears to be some kind of duplication of numbers, so a ball park figure of 86,545 MKIII's were made, give or take a few for the anomalies.
Hope this info is of some help or interest to members.
abellringer.

[chieffool]

Excellent info. 86,000+ mk3s.... and even the youngest is now 40+ years old.

That is a serious amount of potential springs that (based on current availability from 'modern' sources)...
...don't fit...
...don't work...
...don't match...
...don't belong....

My replacement original spring arrived from New Zealand, courtesy of the unbelievably generous Barry I.
webley tagged - Popped straight in - sweet as cherry pie.
Gun shoots smooth and has now settled down with no b@ggering about at 9.4 ft lbs (+/- 12fps and getting better).

The spring clearly suits the gun, and that suits me fine.

[deejayuu]

Chieftool. Glad you have a good result.
Please say that you took measurements of the new spring to pass on to us that are still struggling with ours!!