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Thread: Dating a Webley Senior via serial number

  1. #16
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    Hi,

    Just to add that the knurling on the barrel doesn't go beyond the cocking-link shoe, so definitely a 1950's barrel. From my limited experience, it would appear to be a bit of a mix and match with a fairly crude attempt to make it look pre-war for some unknown reason. I can't imagine any circumstances whereby Webley would ever let such a pistol leave the factory. The batch number stamped at the front also clearly indicates that this is a post-war pistol for as we all know, this stamping replaced the pre-war Ser No system after the war.

    Regards

    Brian
    Last edited by Abasmajor; 16-02-2015 at 01:53 PM.

  2. #17
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    Judging by the responses, and usual specifications on this gun, it appears I may have myself a mongrel.

    So far it sounds as though the barrel is from a later pistol, the serial from an earlier, the grips from a later, and so on.. Maybe somebody got severely bored with various spare pieces hanging about! Thus, giving birth to Frankensenior.

    Though I do wonder how it ended up in my possession, if someone went through the trouble of conjuring such a mixture. Perhaps it was sold as a "rarity" at one point, and somebody was duped into paying far more for it than generously worth? Either way I didn't break the bank for it, and it's actually a very nice gun to hold and shoot. I'd probably pay more for a worse gun!

    I am likely going to sell it however, as I do have a newfound interest in air guns and targets, hunting etc. Should I aim to sell, I would look to help fund a lovely air rifle with it I'd imagine. It's just a shame that judging by its mixmatchery (Yes, I created this word just then), it may not fetch as much as another would.

  3. #18
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    Just for info, one of my Seniors, that I am sure was getting on to the last made, knurled barrel (1939-40?) serial number S18539, black grips (yes, they did do some) without 'Webley' logo. Patent details on RHS chamber, no Birmingham 4, just Birmingham, small P at the front of the trigger area.

    If you had a post war Senior and wanted to make it look like prewar just add some number to the batch number stamped on the front. Anyone looked under the grips?

    My personal opinion would be fraud, no Seniors had 6 digit numbers, could be an apprentice at Webley playing games(?).
    lodmoor
    Always ready to buy another Webley pistol and another and . . . .

  4. #19
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    Your Webley isnt a fake.
    The Quak is.
    That's the difference.

    Yours isnt the only odd serial number that has got onto a gun.
    I can't remember now but I had it on an air rifle and have seen errors on collectable knives.

    I can't see any reason why anyone would want to fiddle with your Senior.
    It is only recently that they have gone up in value and even now we are not talking big money!

  5. #20
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    Just had another look at pics (photobucket playing up again) the trigger is certainly post war so it has definately been doctored unless, when they were exported to the US of A Beeman or his ilk added their own serial numbers(?). Now there is a thought.
    lodmoor
    Always ready to buy another Webley pistol and another and . . . .

  6. #21
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    With regards to looking under the grips, I had been meaning to do this as I'm aware there is a serial under here also (I think it's the serial, or some number at least), but didn't have my screwdriver handy as it's here with me in work. I'll take it home today and take off the grips for a deeper peek.

    It does increasingly look as though it's been modified in certain ways by someone previously, though there is one thing I don't understand and it's to do with the serial number.

    Mine is seven characters in length which, unanimously, has been declared incorrect. Were this a post war model at manufacture, should it not have a different number (batch perhaps) in its place? Three or four digits long? Or under the grips instead? And if that is the case and someone has added the letter S and a digit or two to make it appear older, does that mean they will have artificially added the 258 near the tip of the barrel also? As they will have had to match the serial number above the trigger.

    Apologies if that question takes a second and third reading to decipher, I know what I'm trying to ask but I can't quite put my question into words. It may be easier to ask if the post war models came with a three digit number at the front of the barrel as well as their batch numbers, or if this was also exclusive to the older models.

  7. #22
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    Batch numbers were marked at the end of the cylinder as well as under the grips. Check the appearance of the numbers at the cylinder end and the 'serial' number, my bet is they will be slightly different.
    lodmoor
    Always ready to buy another Webley pistol and another and . . . .

  8. #23
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    Sorry I'm a little late with my further input - work gets in the way sometimes! I'm not sure I can add anything of value to what has already been said. The knurling is of the later post 1949 type in that it does not extend to the cocking linkage. The trigger is of the standard post war style and the grips are of the standard post war Mark I type. An Assembly number would have been in use at the time this pistol was made and this should appear stamped under the left grip, as has been pointed out. I'm intrigued by the S prefixed number though and that the final 3 digits match the front plug. It makes me wonder whether an Assembly number is stamped under the grip. I'd guess agewise: 1950-58.

    This has been an intriguing thread!

    John

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie & John View Post
    Sorry I'm a little late with my further input - work gets in the way sometimes! I'm not sure I can add anything of value to what has already been said. The knurling is of the later post 1949 type in that it does not extend to the cocking linkage. The trigger is of the standard post war style and the grips are of the standard post war Mark I type. An Assembly number would have been in use at the time this pistol was made and this should appear stamped under the left grip, as has been pointed out. I'm intrigued by the S prefixed number though and that the final 3 digits match the front plug. It makes me wonder whether an Assembly number is stamped under the grip. I'd guess agewise: 1950-58.

    This has been an intriguing thread!

    John
    Allow me to kindly answer this question with my final pictures of interest.





    In conclusion, this is more than likely a post-war pistol, half posing as a pre-war?

    The only reason I can think of where someone would want to do this is to sell it for more than the standard value. I can't see a collector doing it! But then is the difference in cost between a pre and post that different that it would warrant etching a false serial number into it? Who knows.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sphiinx View Post
    Allow me to kindly answer this question with my final pictures of interest.





    In conclusion, this is more than likely a post-war pistol, half posing as a pre-war?

    The only reason I can think of where someone would want to do this is to sell it for more than the standard value. I can't see a collector doing it! But then is the difference in cost between a pre and post that different that it would warrant etching a false serial number into it? Who knows.
    He must have really wanted his pistol to be prewar!
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  11. #26
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    As I suggested BUT, why? And if the perpetrator knew Webleys then he would know, surely, that the serial numbers did not have that many digits?

    Could be a joker winding us all up!!!!!!

    Oh, yes, definately a post war pistol.
    lodmoor
    Always ready to buy another Webley pistol and another and . . . .

  12. #27
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    Somewhere, at some time, there is a man slurping his coffee, rocking back and forth while chuckling to himself. Probably reading this forum.

    We're on to you.

  13. #28
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    Hi. Your Senior looks identical to my post war Senior in every respect except the "serial number" . Have you looked under the left hand grip for a batch number? If this is there and the last three digit's of the batch number match the number on the front of your gun then this likely proves it is postwar with a "serial number" added at unknown point in time.
    Can share pictures of mine (batch 1228 and likely date 49-55) if you wish.
    Steve

  14. #29
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    Smile

    I wonder if the pistol was bought, Maybe as part of a batch by a company that used their own serial numbers for their stock and was nothing to do with Webley or someone trying to pass the gun off as an earlier model!!


    I have a pre war Mk1 (Wooden grips) that has a barrel that looks more like the later ones, Maybe a bitsa but i'm sure I can recall someone telling that they made a small amount with the shorter barrel (No over hang!)..

    Pic 1


    Pic 2

    Pic 2 shows the barrel length that is normal for the mk's that i've seen before, Does anyone know whether the shorter barrel is from a later pistol or would it have been with the barrel from new??

    I think the later barrels all had the knurling as the later one in pic2 (not 100% sure though )



    John
    Last edited by johnbaz; 15-10-2015 at 01:43 PM. Reason: cuz eye karnt spel proply!!
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbaz View Post
    I wonder if the pistol was bought, Maybe as part of a batch by a company that used their own serial numbers for their stock and was nothing to do with Webley or someone trying to pass the gun off as an earlier model!!


    I have a pre war Mk1 (Wooden grips) that has a barrel that looks more like the later ones, Maybe a bitsa but i'm sure I can recall someone telling that they made a small amount with the shorter barrel (No over hang!)..

    Pic 1


    Pic 2

    Pic 2 shows the barrel length that is normal for the mk's that i've seen before, Does anyone know whether the shorter barrel is from a later pistol or would it have been with the barrel from new??

    I think the later barrels all had the knurling as the later one in pic2 (not 100% sure though )



    John
    It's only human nature to wonder whether our anomalous guns are rare originals, John. But if there's another, far likelier explanation, you have to go with that one every time.

    I'm no expert on Webley pistols, but I strongly suspect your Mk1 without barrel extension has a barrel from a later prewar Mk1.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

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