Webley Whiting Project

[ccdjg]

Back in January Fattman started a thread asking about members’ projects for 2015, and there were several replies with wish lists of things collectors wanted to do this year http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....t=year+project
My own rather ambitious New Year resolution was to attempt to make a reproduction Webley Whiting (two in fact), following the original patent drawings. Well, to my own surprise I have been making reasonable progress so I thought some of you might be interested seeing how things have gone up to now. I also intend to keep updating this thread periodically until (hopefully) the gun is completed. I have to say though that I soon abandoned the idea of making two guns as there was far more hacksawing, filing and general fiddling about than I anticipated and I didn’t fancy going through all that twice.

For those of you who don’t know, the Whiting pistol was patented in 1910 by William Whiting, who was then a director of Webley & Scott. Although the pistol never went into production, one original prototype does still exist, and in recent years copies have been made by those engineering maestros Mac Evans in the UK and Grant Stace in New Zealand. Here are the patent drawings http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psen0gx8ed.jpg
and a picture of Whiting’s prototype. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psynawv938.jpg
It is easy to see why the gun was never commercialised, as the low swept volume would inevitably make the gun underpowered, however strong the spring, and it is unlikely to have had any more power than the average gat. Even so, the pistol has great historical interest and any Webley collector would like to own an example, even if it was only a modern copy.

Mac Evans very kindly sent me full size copies of the patent drawings he used when he made his guns, and these saved me a lot of time. The starting point was to get suitably sized mild steel bars http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psvvgjnt0r.jpg
and cut out the main frame and cylinder block. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psawpojvup.jpg
This meant a lot of metal removal and the old lathe had to work hard, and it also called for some heavy duty hacksawing. The cylinder block was then bored to produce the cylinder, and the end threaded to receive a cylinder plug. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psolml4rzl.jpg
The cylinder plug was made from round steel bar and the spring guide rod was sweated into this.
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psl5ir3mpn.jpg.

The pivot point on the main frame was then shaped and drilled, http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psdezimeve.jpg
and the cylinder plug was milled to accommodate this when the cylinder block and main frame were assembled together. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...pssntahmse.jpg
Fitting the cylinder block to the main frame was very time consuming as a very close fit of the mating surfaces was required where the air transfer port was located http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psgprediz6.jpg

while at the same time the hinged action had to operate smoothly. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...pszig0ip9f.jpg

The piston was turned to size from round steel bar and bored to receive the spring. Careful honing and lapping ensured that the piston head was a smooth sliding fit in the cylinder, while at the same time it gave a good air tight seal with the cylinder sides. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psrzqwzotg.jpg
The piston then had to be fitted with the bracket which engages with the cocking lever http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psiilpkj1c.jpg
After milling the end of the piston the bracket was then brazed on to it http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psm040dw9m.jpg

So I am happy with progress so far, but there is still a long way to go. The next phase of the project will involve the milling of various slots in the cylinder block and the main frame to accept the various moving components, and then cutting out the steel frame for the grip frame. Watch this space.

[sproat]

Highly interesting, can"t wait for the next instalment,

[Garvin]

Very interesting. Progress indeed! This is your destination...

[AC99]

A challenging project. You clearly seem to know what you are doing and have made a great start.
Well done!

[thisisdonald]

awesome ... looking forward to the next instalments

[Hollowpoint]

Excellent! Love seeing projects like this.

Just one thing though! you should be writing down all the measurements and dimensions and sending the plans to me.

[Mzee]

Fascinating to see how you're translating the drawings into actual parts of the pistol. I'm not an engineer, as you may gather, but I've always been interested in how things are made, work & fit together. Thanks very much for the progress report & looking forward to seeing your next one and the eventual outcome of this very interesting project. Best wishes, Glyn

[ccdjg]

Thanks for all the messages of encouragement - it does help, especially if your better half thinks you are slightly crazy. Things have moved on a bit since my last post so here is an update.

After completing the cylinder block and main frame assembly, the next phase was to mill out the various slots in the assembly that had to accommodate the piston slide bracket, sear, trigger mechanism, cocking arm and trigger guard. This needed some very close consideration of the patent drawings, and some careful milling – something I am still learning about, and end mills are too expensive for me to dive in feet first. Anyway, everything went well and here are the results: http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...pssxktjwas.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps0aum01vc.jpg

This picture shows the piston fitted into the cylinder, with the piston bracket sliding in its slot: http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...pspkob8i6y.jpg

The next step was to make the sear that engages with the shoulder turned into the end of the piston. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psdzfovixx.jpg
The sear was made from carbon steel bar so that it can eventually be hardened and tempered. Note that it has been drilled for its pivot pin. The piston itself had been previously case hardened before brazing the bracket onto it, as it will also be heat hardened so that the load bearing shoulder will resist wear and tear from the sear. This picture shows the sear in place, with the piston and a very light spring inserted in the cylinder : http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psfk9ltems.jpg

To my great relief when the piston was pulled fully back the sear engaged smoothly and the gun could then be fired by pushing the front of the sear upwards.

So far so good, but the whole thing still didn’t look much like a gun. Things improved when I made the grip frame. Unfortunately the frame needed to be 7/16 inches thick and I had a steel plate that was quite a bit thicker, but was too good to pass up. So after a lot of heavy hacksawing the frame was cut out in profile http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psb6tpftbc.jpg. It was shaped by filing and then several millimetres of excess steel milled off to give the correct thickness http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psq5ymoszp.jpg
Not something I would recommend if you can get the right thickness from the outset.

With the grip frame loosely pinned to the rest of the gun, it did start to look like the beginnings of a pistol: http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psesknojwy.jpg

The grip will be brazed to the main frame at a later stage when all the internals are in place and are functioning properly.

Well that’s all for now, and the next phase will involve making the trigger mechanism and the barrel.

If all this sounds as though I am having an easy time of it, I should say that this is far from the truth. I am no gifted engineer and in fact I knew little or nothing about lathes or milling a few years ago. With the aid of books, lots of trial and error, and many mistakes, I have become only just about competent with the basic principles. But for me the fun of these projects is the learning process itself – and when you have only very basic equipment (a very mature lathe, a vertical slide, hacksaw, files and a good vice) there is always something new to challenge you and to make you think and improvise. It also gets you from under the wife’s feet when you are retired like me. So anybody can have a go at projects like this if you have the patience and the time.

More again later.

,

[RichardH]

What a great project

Just one thing to consider is how you will finish it when completed, silver solder or braze rather than weld will leave a bright gold stripe around each joint after blueing whichever process you use.

If you need a hand with the finishing feel free to bring it down here and put it through my tanks.

[Garvin]

All the more impressive that an amateur machinist should tackle this project...

Looking at one of Mac's recreations of the Whiting from the patent drawings, it occurs to me (and as you mention in the ESAP) that it would be much better looking if the barrel was about half as long. Maybe that would have been the 'Whiting Mk2' if the pistol had ever got off the ground, commercially speaking?

[Abasmajor]

All the more impressive that an amateur machinist should tackle this project...

Looking at one of Mac's recreations of the Whiting from the patent drawings, it occurs to me (and as you mention in the ESAP) that it would be much better looking if the barrel was about half as long. Maybe that would have been the 'Whiting Mk2' if the pistol had ever got off the ground, commercially speaking?

Hi Danny,

It's my understanding that the barrel of the original Whiting needed to that long inorder to achieve a reasonable muzzle velocity due to the very short cocking stroke. Even with the longer barrel, I would imagine it wasn't a very powerful offering. Shame though, as it looks really cool being reminiscent of the early Webley semi-auto pistols.

Regards

Brian

[ccdjg]

That’s a very good point Richard, and one that has given me cause for a lot thought. When I use the term brazing I really mean silver soldering using the highest temperature silver solder I can get, and as you say it can cause a gold line after bluing. I have played around with silver soldering to try to get round this problem with other small parts and I have found that the following works : first I dish out the two flats to be joined very slightly so that they mate tightly round the edges but have a very narrow space inside for the solder; secondly I hammer the solder until it is a thin foil that can easily be cut with scissors and then I cut it to size and lay it on one of the pieces to be joined (having painted a layer of flux on first). Then I clamp the two pieces quite tightly together and heat with MAP until I see a bit of solder run from edge. This gives a very tight joint which is virtually invisible even after bluing, and the strength of the joint is still OK even though the amount of solder in the gap is very small. This is what I did to fix the piston bracket to the piston as in this picture. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psm040dw9m.jpg

Even if this technique lets me down with the grip, I take comfort in the fact that joint will be actually under the frame and out of sight, and even more so when the wood grip plates are in place.

Many thanks for the offer of bluing. That is very generous of you, and as has been said many times before, it is great how helpful people are on this forum. Actually Richard I am intending to have a go at this myself, if only to be able to say that the finished pistol is entirely my own work, plus the fact that it will be another fun challenge. I have done a bit of amateur blueing, and as I am a chemist by training I have access to the relevant formulas and chemicals. I will probably go for the hot alkali bath method in this instance, as I have always had reliable results with it. But your offer is very much appreciated!

Danny, I agree entirely with you that the excessively long barrel is both ugly and impractical. With such a low powered compression unit, the drag from the barrel must have almost stopped the pellet from ever leaving the muzzle. I recall Mac saying somewhere that he only got about 72 fps from his example. Mac made a very short barrel which was readily interchangeable with the original, and presumably this helped a lot. The story goes that William Whiting built the pistol with his son mind, as a trainer to simulate the Webley .22 rimfire pistol of the time. As a result the pistol resembled the firearm closely in appearance but must have been a big let down on the range. Of course my main aim is to make a copy as close to the original as I can, so the over-long barrel will unfortunately have to stay.

[tomk]

Hi
I have sent you a pm can you please let me know if you have received it.
Thanks
TomK

[Rob M]

Hi Danny,

It's my understanding that the barrel of the original Whiting needed to that long inorder to achieve a reasonable muzzle velocity due to the very short cocking stroke. Even with the longer barrel, I would imagine it wasn't a very powerful offering. Shame though, as it looks really cool being reminiscent of the early Webley semi-auto pistols.

Regards

Brian

Isn't it the case though that excessive barrel length can sap power? I'd be surprised if there was sufficient volume in the cylinder to still be imparting power to any pellet at the end of that barrel.

Excellent work though, looking forward to further updates!

[Garvin]

Hi Danny,

It's my understanding that the barrel of the original Whiting needed to that long inorder to achieve a reasonable muzzle velocity due to the very short cocking stroke. Even with the longer barrel, I would imagine it wasn't a very powerful offering. Shame though, as it looks really cool being reminiscent of the early Webley semi-auto pistols.

Regards

Brian

I must admit I've never quite got my head around the link between barrel length and velocity, Brian, but I'm sure what John and Rob say applies in this case.

Hasn't the longer barrel=more power idea, that the HW35E sold so well on in the '70s, been discredited?! My dim understanding is that longer barrels make CO2 rifles more powerful but with springers it can be the opposite, above an 'optimum' length...