More hornet bullets.

[223AI]

I got that 3300fps with 12gn lil-gun in a Hornady K case & small rifle primer.

This one is 10%+ better than the book velocity.

That's 10% higher than the same combination but with 12.9 gr of lilgun out of same model rifle based on what I'm getting.

[angrybear]

Now got two boxes of Sierra 40gn 1200's on the way to my RFD which I'm looking forward to testing, I think I'll abandon further testing the Hornady 45gn until I've had a play with them.

[Eligus]

Now got two boxes of Sierra 40gn 1200's on the way to my RFD which I'm looking forward to testing, I think I'll abandon further testing the Hornady 45gn until I've had a play with them.

Let us know how you get on. Mine was better with the 45's than the 40's

[angrybear]

Let us know how you get on. Mine was better with the 45's than the 40's

Well I can already say that mine's as good with 40gn in .223" (Sierra 1100's) as I've managed with 45gn Hornady 2230, so the .224" (1200) should do even better.

But it did "one hole cloverleaf" my last 3 factory 45gn Remington rounds at 50yds.

[angrybear]

OK so I've got my Sierra 40gn SP's and just made up a selection of loads but I notice that on the vernier the coal is inconsistent

Closely comparing the finished rounds I can see the problem is with the bullets, the lead tips are inconsistent in shape & size, so that a more pointed tip is being seated a fraction deeper than the more rounded.

My Tester to set the die was spot on at 1.720", but the batch I've just done go from 1.731" down to 1.704" although the vast majority are 1.719-1.721"

I doubt that's going to help the grouping much

[223AI]

OK so I've got my Sierra 40gn SP's and just made up a selection of loads but I notice that on the vernier the coal is inconsistent

Closely comparing the finished rounds I can see the problem is with the bullets, the lead tips are inconsistent in shape & size, so that a more pointed tip is being seated a fraction deeper than the more rounded.

My Tester to set the die was spot on at 1.720", but the batch I've just done go from 1.731" down to 1.704" although the vast majority are 1.719-1.721"

I doubt that's going to help the grouping much

I guess it depends on if hey are all consistent to the ogive which they may well be, one thing I noted when loading soft points is if you squeeze the vernier too hard you squash the point and shorten the COL anyway!

[Eligus]

0.002 variation is unlikely to make much difference but the more extreme variations might - causing an eneven 'jump' to the lands.
There is a device (forgoten the name) that you pop the tip of the round into and it when you measure it gives a consistant measurement to the base of the ogive. Of course this gives differing COAL's for different bullets (depending on tip shape) but the amount of tapered tip sitting inside the lands and not touching is of no consequence.

[Eligus]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_f1TTfqxVUw...0/DSCN7681.JPG

I don't know if this link will work but give it a try.

[angrybear]

Thanks Eligus, that actually gave me an idea, so I've just checked and the seating stem of the die is actually very concave so that it seats on the bullet well down the ogive rather than up at the tip.

so having removed the seating stem I've measured the two extreme rounds with the stem "in place" on the bullet, so COAL's of 1.704" & 1.731" gives 0.027" difference, but with the stem included 3.389" & 3.391" so only 0.002" difference in the ogive length.

Although just to confuse myself I have also just measured the length from rim face to seating stem ogive contact point on rounds with different bullets and found quite a large spread which will mean that same spread in ogive to the lands with the round seated, (if you follow)

So should I set the seating die to give a uniform & consistent length from rim face to ogive (& therefore ogive to the lands) and ignore the difference in COAL due to longer tapers on different bullets ?

[Eligus]

So should I set the seating die to give a uniform & consistent length from rim face to ogive (& therefore ogive to the lands) and ignore the difference in COAL due to longer tapers on different bullets ?

In my opinion - yes! It would seem sensible. Howevr, does this mean measuring each individual round and adjusting the die every time?

Probably not relevant here but some chaps loading cast bullets fill in the concave on the seating stem so the sharp edge does not dig in - can't see any advantage with pointed bullets though.

It seems as though the problem is with the manufacturing tollerances of the tip/ogive length, you might have to put up with it - unless you want to go to the lengths of the target shooters who weigh and measure bullets into batches!

[angrybear]

No that's a bit too much,
I'll stick with what I'm doing as the ogive is much closer than the coal.

[Ben410]

I load for my hornet and don't profess to be an expert. But some of the best advice I had of another forum member was load the round so it will go in your mag ( I use 40gr vmax) and then give it a light crimp with the Lee factory die. I now don't bother messing with the oal at all, I seat it to 1.850 and crimp and I get great, small groups and won't bother messing again. I m not sure exactly why if I'm honest but it seems to work. I spent a lot of time messing with the oal and different weights of powder. I now use remington brass, small pistol or small rifle primers and 13gr of Lil gun and crimp. I don't think I'll be trying another recipe any time soon.

Ben

[223AI]

I'm with Ben, I have just finished weighing and batching my brass & heads for my .223 for club work, my hornet just gets loaded with the bullets straight out of the box with the die set to give the same seating depth. There is always a bit of a variance doing it this way but they shoot well!

[dickthomas]

Just thought you'd like to know, when I put your recipe into Quickload, it shows that your shooting way above the maximum safe load.

Cartridge : .22 Hornet(.224 groove=custom)
Bullet : .224, 45, Sierra SP SemiSp 1300
Useable Case Capaci: 11.820 grain H2O = 0.767 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.720 inch = 43.69 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon Lil'Gun

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 86 9.76 2463 606 29357 3172 97.1 1.135
-18.0 88 10.00 2520 634 31577 3233 97.9 1.104
-16.0 91 10.25 2576 663 33985 3288 98.5 1.074
-14.0 93 10.49 2632 692 36600 3336 99.1 1.045
-12.0 95 10.74 2687 722 39446 3377 99.5 1.015 ! Near Maximum !
-10.0 97 10.98 2742 751 42546 3411 99.8 0.986 ! Near Maximum !
-08.0 99 11.22 2796 781 45927 3437 99.9 0.957 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0 101 11.47 2850 811 49608 3455 100.0 0.930 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0 104 11.71 2902 842 53585 3468 100.0 0.904 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 106 11.96 2954 872 57916 3479 100.0 0.879 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 108 12.20 3006 903 62642 3490 100.0 0.855 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 110 12.44 3057 934 67812 3499 100.0 0.832 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 112 12.69 3107 965 73478 3506 100.0 0.809 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 114 12.93 3158 996 79705 3511 100.0 0.788 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 116 13.18 3208 1028 86567 3515 100.0 0.767 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 119 13.42 3258 1060 94155 3517 100.0 0.747 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 108 12.20 3098 959 77800 3309 100.0 0.802 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 108 12.20 2859 817 48582 3703 99.0 0.931 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[Eligus]

Wow - even more comfusion! It's a bit of a job when the bullet and powder manufacturers can't agree about load limits.
When working up loads by steps I always check for signs of over pressure and have never encountered any.

dickthomas - I'd be interested in seeing what Quickload says about Hornady V-Max in 35gr and 40gr with Lilgun.