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Thread: Girandoni-type pellet repeater?

  1. #1
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    Girandoni-type pellet repeater?

    Looking at some pics of a Girandoni-type repeater posted the other day on the American Vintage Airguns forum by Mr Fletcher, it occurred to me that a similar system could work on a pellet-firing springer.

    The production repeaters that I can think of involve rotary mags (ie prewar Haenel, CO2 revolvers), various lead ball mags (pre and post-war Haenel etc), or inline tubes behind the breach (Gamo, Jackal, prewar EM-GE).

    Couldn't a Girandoni-style tube magazine parallel to the barrel be used to feed pellets via a sliding block breech, assuming it could be made airtight? Has anyone seen this done?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
    Looking at some pics of a Girandoni-type repeater posted the other day on the American Vintage Airguns forum by Mr Fletcher, it occurred to me that a similar system could work on a pellet-firing springer.

    The production repeaters that I can think of involve rotary mags (ie prewar Haenel, CO2 revolvers), various lead ball mags (pre and post-war Haenel etc), or inline tubes behind the breach (Gamo, Jackal, prewar EM-GE).

    Couldn't a Girandoni-style tube magazine parallel to the barrel be used to feed pellets via a sliding block breech, assuming it could be made airtight? Has anyone seen this done?
    Hi Danny,

    Have you forgot about the Gem repeater?, isn't this similar?..
    blah blah

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    Most all of the vintage Crosman repeaters, models 102, 104, 118, 400, 600 use a system that is effectively the same as the Girandoni. They all have tube mags aligned with the barrel. The only real difference is the method of opening and closing the transverse shuttle.

    The twisted rod mechanism seen in the 400 and 600 models came to designer Rudy Merz from watching his son play his accordion that used such a mechanism.

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    I find the twisted rod mechanism on my 400 fascinating!
    Very popular on pokers too.
    For those of us with fireplaces

  5. #5
    edbear2 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gingernut View Post
    I find the twisted rod mechanism on my 400 fascinating!
    Very popular on pokers too.
    For those of us with fireplaces
    Or lockwire pliers / pin drills!

    atb, Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCL_dave View Post
    Hi Danny,

    Have you forgot about the Gem repeater?, isn't this similar?..
    Hi Dave. No, I remembered that one, but assumed it involved balls dropping straight into the breach (I must confess I didn't totally understand your detailed explanation ). I was thinking about the Girandoni's sliding breach really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Fletcher View Post
    Most all of the vintage Crosman repeaters, models 102, 104, 118, 400, 600 use a system that is effectively the same as the Girandoni. They all have tube mags aligned with the barrel. The only real difference is the method of opening and closing the transverse shuttle.

    The twisted rod mechanism seen in the 400 and 600 models came to designer Rudy Merz from watching his son play his accordion that used such a mechanism.
    Thanks. I'll have a look into those mechanisms.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
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    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

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    Logun, ripley 25

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    I have repaired a few 600's and my 677 and find a lot of the feeding problems are caused by wear in the square hole of the cam ring where the cam rod passes through. The hole can start to wear in the corners going into almost round shape, making the shuttle pellet loader flop too loosely. There are a couple of methods of rectifying this with repairs, and also thankfully you can still get new cam rings.

    Baz
    BE AN INDEPENDENT THINKER, DON'T FOLLOW THE CROWD

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    I knew the thousands of years of combined wisdom that resides in BBS Collectables would come up trumps...

    Here are some pics from Lawrie showing exactly the kind of device I had in mind, the Daystate Speedloader, designed for the QB Co2 air rifles.

    Did it ever go into production? It says 'Patent pending' on it. I wonder if Girandoni got a mention in the patent application?
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    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  11. #11
    ccdjg is offline Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
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    There is a little known repeating air pistol which used this type of loading system - the El Gamo R20. This is basically the El Gamo Falcon, which has the usual flip-over breech loading block, and alongside the barrel is a spring-fed magazine tube. Pics are here, courtesy of Spanish collector J. Perez : http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psgmszwfvp.jpg
    http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps4edellvc.jpg

    The system is so simple, and I imagine almost infallible with ball ammo, that I don’t know why this pistol didn’t become better known. It would have been very easy to manufacture as it would only have required the magazine tube to be fixed on the side of a standard Falcon. However it must have had a very short production run and it is very rare. I have only ever come across two examples. If anyone owns one I would like to know how it performs. Even better, if it is available for sale or swap I would like to be first in the queue!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccdjg View Post
    There is a little known repeating air pistol which used this type of loading system - the El Gamo R20. This is basically the El Gamo Falcon, which has the usual flip-over breech loading block, and alongside the barrel is a spring-fed magazine tube. Pics are here, courtesy of Spanish collector J. Perez : http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psgmszwfvp.jpg
    http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps4edellvc.jpg

    The system is so simple, and I imagine almost infallible with ball ammo, that I don’t know why this pistol didn’t become better known. It would have been very easy to manufacture as it would only have required the magazine tube to be fixed on the side of a standard Falcon. However it must have had a very short production run and it is very rare. I have only ever come across two examples. If anyone owns one I would like to know how it performs. Even better, if it is available for sale or swap I would like to be first in the queue!
    For some strange reason some repeaters don't seem to catch on, usualy on spring power guns, why this is l don't know, because after the 1st fiddly part of loading up it's a lot less time, yet moden pcps repeaters seem to be the norm.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccdjg View Post
    There is a little known repeating air pistol which used this type of loading system - the El Gamo R20. This is basically the El Gamo Falcon, which has the usual flip-over breech loading block, and alongside the barrel is a spring-fed magazine tube. Pics are here, courtesy of Spanish collector J. Perez : http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psgmszwfvp.jpg
    http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps4edellvc.jpg

    The system is so simple, and I imagine almost infallible with ball ammo, that I don’t know why this pistol didn’t become better known. It would have been very easy to manufacture as it would only have required the magazine tube to be fixed on the side of a standard Falcon. However it must have had a very short production run and it is very rare. I have only ever come across two examples. If anyone owns one I would like to know how it performs. Even better, if it is available for sale or swap I would like to be first in the queue!
    Interesting, John, thanks. I suppose this type of autoloading system is perfect for the Falcon design. The flip over block means half the problem is already solved.

    Going off on a bit of a tangent, this over-engineered adaptation of a prewar BSA is a very inelegant way to turn a Lincoln Jeffries-type tap loader into a repeater. It makes the Jackel's autoloader seem positively slick!
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    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
    Interesting, John, thanks. I suppose this type of autoloading system is perfect for the Falcon design. The flip over block means half the problem is already solved.

    Going off on a bit of a tangent, this over-engineered adaptation of a prewar BSA is a very inelegant way to turn a Lincoln Jeffries-type tap loader into a repeater. It makes the Jackel's autoloader seem positively slick!
    I take it this means working the under lever to cock the spring is separate to activating the loading mechanism?

    The pics seem to illustrate you have to manually tilt the magazine to a perpendicular position above the taphole, and that this also cycles the tap to open - accept the pellet - then close the breech. If so, is it really 'auto' or 'self' loading?

    I find it oddly attractive because it seems so ridiculously Heath Robinson....
    ....and sort of disappointed there isn't a clockwork element to it - or perhaps some form of steam mechanism as well!

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