if only

[look no hands]

We are in the know.

However the gun makers will produce guns that sell in higher numbers, primarily.

Quality will always be second to speed in manufacture / assembly.

Appearance and marketing will be next.

It makes me livid that this is an accepted fact.

I have avoided new BSA guns, as they seem to be held in low esteem and they seem to be problematic.

I believe investment is there, but the widespread market has a different paradigm now. Choice is greater, more brands than ever and budgets are tighter.

It will always be volume first.

Real time quality comes from Artisan gun makers who survive, because, people who want a specific thing and will not compromise, go to them.

Most guns can be made better, but the raw materials have to be there first, to make it viable.

I had a BSA Mercury for a while. It was a freebie and it was in a sorry state.
Eventually the axis pin fell out in 3 pieces. etc.

That said, no twang, fast shot cycle. It was a good gun, however it was beyond my capability and interest to restore it. So I too gave it to someone who fancied a go.

If I wasn't in a club, it would have probably have gone in the bin.

As i said, we are in the know, however a new shooter will walk into a gunshop, see a stealth, or a tactical rifle, buy it, shoot it and be satisfied that their new gun is oooorsum.

That new shooter doesnt know about adjustable axis bolts, shims, guides, top hats, finished spring ends, correct lubes and has probably never heard of a Chrono.

Still, they buy the gun.
The chain takes their money and the world keeps turning.

Meanwhile the manufacturers are busy working on compromises to make more margin all the time.

Very wise words and I feel your plight when things like quality etc comes into play but it's like what tuners on here have said (Bigtoe mainly) that sometimes all it takes to improve a rifle, either in the build quality area or the firing cycle etc (Tony mentioned about the short stroking of the AA TX range would cost about 50p by just lengthening the piston rod a few mm's) is a few extra pence spent on something like a breech bolt and nut that annoyingly BSA did actually fit to the later Mercs which improved them no end and then dropped the bolt when they produced the Supersport and now it happens all over again, if you had the specific equipment and know how to do the conversion on your rifle it would only cost you a couple of quid to get the bolt and nut, so what will it cost the makers, even less and would stop all this aggro and backlash from the knowledgeable shooters.

It just seems to me that they are trying to kill off their own future reputation to save a few pence now.

Pete

[fatttmannn]

Very wise words and I feel your plight when things like quality etc comes into play but it's like what tuners on here have said (Bigtoe mainly) that sometimes all it takes to improve a rifle, either in the build quality area or the firing cycle etc (Tony mentioned about the short stroking of the AA TX range would cost about 50p by just lengthening the piston rod a few mm's) is a few extra pence spent on something like a breech bolt and nut that annoyingly BSA did actually fit to the later Mercs which improved them no end and then dropped the bolt when they produced the Supersport and now it happens all over again, if you had the specific equipment and know how to do the conversion on your rifle it would only cost you a couple of quid to get the bolt and nut, so what will it cost the makers, even less and would stop all this aggro and backlash from the knowledgeable shooters.

It just seems to me that they are trying to kill off their own future reputation to save a few pence now.

Pete

100% on that.

[VALE BOY]

Ive been reading this thread with interest, particularly with the references to Webley and BSA. My interest in airguns began as a schoolboy in the mid-sixties when most of the airguns I was aware of were various Dianas...the Milbro ones made in New Stevenson, near Motherwell in Scotland, mainly models 16, 22, 23, 25 and 27 and BSA Meteors and Webley Falcons....Mk3s and Airsporters were relatively rare and usually referred to in hushed, revered tones.

The most typical encounters with the Dianas and Meteors and what I guess were Cadets was at 'The Shows'...the travelling fairgrounds where the air rifle galleries were the biggest attraction to me and my pals who mainly were denied the pleasure of owning an airgun due to parental denial....and of course most of these were pretty knackered with dubious sights and barrels.

In those days, we had little or no knowledge of foreign manufacturers except for the Relum Tornados which could be bought from mail-order catalogues such as Empire Stores, Kays etc and Crossman pump-ups which reputedly banged a hole in a galvanised bin if you put in a dozen pumps. German makes were almost unheard of and remained a bit of a mystery.

I suppose many lads my age were interested in airguns at that time and quite a few of my friends bought them as we got into our late teens. I think, to a great extent, a fair bit of this interest in guns was generated by the plethora of
'Westerns', as they were called, on the telly.
In the fifties and sixties, between the BBC and ITV, there must have been about 20 different series including The Lone Ranger, Range Rider, Wells Fargo, Laramie, Boots and Saddles, Wagon Train, Gunsmoke, Bonanza and loads more.
I mention this because I feel this resulted in a ready-made market for airgun manufacturers and of course attitudes towards guns, shooting and hunting were much more relaxed and accepted. If you look at the advertising which was evident in all kinds of publications, Exchange and Mart, catalogues, magazines and comics at the time and of course in previous eras where newspapers would carry adverts depicting schoolboys resplendent in their Blazers and Caps, there was no denying where a large proportion of the market was targeted at. And of course this made financial sense to these manufacturers as it is a basic economic premise to engage new markets and customers.

However, due to gradual changes in attitudes, social behaviour, leisure opportunities, decline of engineering manufacturing industries, advancements in technology resulting in passive, sedentary recreation involving computers etc and legal restrictions which have occurred progressively (regressively?) from the early seventies, that market for selling airguns to an 'ever-recurring' new young customer base has diminished noticeably.

There is a distinct parallel in the decline of the British airgun industry and shooting in general and the virtual collapse of the British motorcycle industry. In many respects the BSA Airsporter and the Webley MK3 were the equivalent of the Triumph Bonneville 650 and the Norton Dominator 650 SS respectively. All of them had their origins in designs and materials emanating from the 1940's but using pre-war manufacturing processes. The Airsporter and the Bonneville being more stylish and the Webley and the Norton, arguably more substantial.
All of them were 'updated' with a succession of minor changes and specifications, usually on a cost-cutting basis and introducing plastic based components. And this 'evolutionary decline' of the Airsporter from the 50's into the mid-70s from the Mk1 to the Mk4/5 and the Bonneville, in particular is so evident where the earlier models are generally superior and held in greater regard.
To an extent Norton managed to succeed for a while with the Commando but they were living on borrowed time as they were mainly cosmetically updating an old design which had reached the end of it's practical development and couldn't compete with the technologically advanced offerings from Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, BMW and Ducati.

Webley, of course, replaced the Mk 3 Underlever with the Osprey Sidelever with its Beech stock and plastic components instead of the Walnut stock and metal components of the Mk3.....meanwhile, over the years, the target customer base
( mainly males in the 16-30 age range) is exponentially diminishing due to the factors previously mentioned plus, as far as bikes are concerned, cars becoming more affordable with ever-improving performance.

However, having said all that, it is extremely commendable that there has been a number of innovations and developments in the airgun industry and the motorcycle industry, for that matter, that have occurred in this country over the last 30 odd years or so, which have inspired great designs and mechanisms, but with a lowered production output. However, from a commercially viable point of view, sadly the market is no longer there to justify the costs of research and development and subsequent production on a substantial scale. These generational and social change factors that I have referred to have resulted in this present outcome and sadly I feel it's the end of an era.
I don't mean to sound negative, I'm just trying to be realistic and I think that many of us have to be grateful for living in a period of time where the products of engineering innovations and developments in many aspects of life...not just airguns.. have been available to us ( apart from Falke 90's..not enough of them made) and we should make the most of continuing to enjoy them while we can...C'est la Vie, Rodney!

[fatttmannn]

Ive been reading this thread with interest, particularly with the references to Webley and BSA. My interest in airguns began as a schoolboy in the mid-sixties when most of the airguns I was aware of were various Dianas...the Milbro ones made in New Stevenson, near Motherwell in Scotland, mainly models 16, 22, 23, 25 and 27 and BSA Meteors and Webley Falcons....Mk3s and Airsporters were relatively rare and usually referred to in hushed, revered tones.

The most typical encounters with the Dianas and Meteors and what I guess were Cadets was at 'The Shows'...the travelling fairgrounds where the air rifle galleries were the biggest attraction to me and my pals who mainly were denied the pleasure of owning an airgun due to parental denial....and of course most of these were pretty knackered with dubious sights and barrels.

In those days, we had little or no knowledge of foreign manufacturers except for the Relum Tornados which could be bought from mail-order catalogues such as Empire Stores, Kays etc and Crossman pump-ups which reputedly banged a hole in a galvanised bin if you put in a dozen pumps. German makes were almost unheard of and remained a bit of a mystery.

I suppose many lads my age were interested in airguns at that time and quite a few of my friends bought them as we got into our late teens. I think, to a great extent, a fair bit of this interest in guns was generated by the plethora of
'Westerns', as they were called, on the telly.
In the fifties and sixties, between the BBC and ITV, there must have been about 20 different series including The Lone Ranger, Range Rider, Wells Fargo, Laramie, Boots and Saddles, Wagon Train, Gunsmoke, Bonanza and loads more.
I mention this because I feel this resulted in a ready-made market for airgun manufacturers and of course attitudes towards guns, shooting and hunting were much more relaxed and accepted. If you look at the advertising which was evident in all kinds of publications, Exchange and Mart, catalogues, magazines and comics at the time and of course in previous eras where newspapers would carry adverts depicting schoolboys resplendent in their Blazers and Caps, there was no denying where a large proportion of the market was targeted at. And of course this made financial sense to these manufacturers as it is a basic economic premise to engage new markets and customers.

However, due to gradual changes in attitudes, social behaviour, leisure opportunities, decline of engineering manufacturing industries, advancements in technology resulting in passive, sedentary recreation involving computers etc and legal restrictions which have occurred progressively (regressively?) from the early seventies, that market for selling airguns to an 'ever-recurring' new young customer base has diminished noticeably.

There is a distinct parallel in the decline of the British airgun industry and shooting in general and the virtual collapse of the British motorcycle industry. In many respects the BSA Airsporter and the Webley MK3 were the equivalent of the Triumph Bonneville 650 and the Norton Dominator 650 SS respectively. All of them had their origins in designs and materials emanating from the 1940's but using pre-war manufacturing processes. The Airsporter and the Bonneville being more stylish and the Webley and the Norton, arguably more substantial.
All of them were 'updated' with a succession of minor changes and specifications, usually on a cost-cutting basis and introducing plastic based components. And this 'evolutionary decline' of the Airsporter from the 50's into the mid-70s from the Mk1 to the Mk4/5 and the Bonneville, in particular is so evident where the earlier models are generally superior and held in greater regard.
To an extent Norton managed to succeed for a while with the Commando but they were living on borrowed time as they were mainly cosmetically updating an old design which had reached the end of it's practical development and couldn't compete with the technologically advanced offerings from Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, BMW and Ducati.

Webley, of course, replaced the Mk 3 Underlever with the Osprey Sidelever with its Beech stock and plastic components instead of the Walnut stock and metal components of the Mk3.....meanwhile, over the years, the target customer base
( mainly males in the 16-30 age range) is exponentially diminishing due to the factors previously mentioned plus, as far as bikes are concerned, cars becoming more affordable with ever-improving performance.

However, having said all that, it is extremely commendable that there has been a number of innovations and developments in the airgun industry and the motorcycle industry, for that matter, that have occurred in this country over the last 30 odd years or so, which have inspired great designs and mechanisms, but with a lowered production output. However, from a commercially viable point of view, sadly the market is no longer there to justify the costs of research and development and subsequent production on a substantial scale. These generational and social change factors that I have referred to have resulted in this present outcome and sadly I feel it's the end of an era.
I don't mean to sound negative, I'm just trying to be realistic and I think that many of us have to be grateful for living in a period of time where the products of engineering innovations and developments in many aspects of life...not just airguns.. have been available to us ( apart from Falke 90's..not enough of them made) and we should make the most of continuing to enjoy them while we can...C'est la Vie, Rodney!

sadly all very true10 years time, no Uk Springer makershope I am wrong, but if we continue to rely on old designs and penny pinch on improvements then we are going down the pan - again. The wealth of talanted men in sheds who can and do improve springers is wonderful, all the makers needs to do is use the capabilities of these talanted chaps and we could have world beating products again, and yet, and yet

[look no hands]

sadly all very true10 years time, no Uk Springer makershope I am wrong, but if we continue to rely on old designs and penny pinch on improvements then we are going down the pan - again. The wealth of talanted men in sheds who can and do improve springers is wonderful, all the makers needs to do is use the capabilities of these talanted chaps and we could have world beating products again, and yet, and yet

Lots of us have been saying that for ages, Tony (Bigtoe) has apparently already offered his services to BSA but they are not interested, to be honest I think there customer service is shite anyway as I contacted them weeks ago about my Airsporter serial number and I've heard naff all back from them, not even a pointer to go and pester John Knibbs, now if you ask AA or HW for said info on your rifle, they normally come back to you very quickly with the details you require, I'm wondering if BSA are now going to start "scrapping the barrel" with all their rifles because the loss of John Bowkett from the fold, the thing I find strange is how BSA don't just drop ingenious and nostalgic rifles (the Airsporter and Spitfire for example) but also all of the underlevers from their range, leaving just two low budget low quality break barrels, the Supersport could easily replace the Meteor (as the size and weight are the same), which has gotten worse over the years with the inclusion of the crappy Gamo trigger and the Supersports is no better than it was either, the last Lightning I tried had a trigger blade made of bent metal.
The Airsporter still seemed to be going strong and was being refined even further with the rotary breech, all they needed was the trigger to be updated (and include the shot gun style safety as standard) and then offer it with a better stock and it would have been the flagship model again, they could have even offered it as a PCP as the Firebird was a rotary breech underlever and I'm sure the mechanics could have been transplanted into the Airsporters body, what an interesting step up the evolutionary ladder that would have been, being able to offer the highly well known and respected Airsporter in either spring or PCP, that would have blown El Tel's mind when he reviewed it in the mags, they could have even transplanted the Goldstar 10 shot mag system into it, I know a lot of people might be saying that I'm flogging a dead horse with this one but it just seems weird that they dropped making it altogether, I know you've mentioned about relying on old designs but some designs just don't age (I'm talking about the Airsporters looks than it's mechanics) and like has already been said, any rifle can be improved upon and if the Airsporter or Mercury had been treated to the same internals as what's in the TX or LGV/U then BSA would have had their higher end rifle to compete with the others and that's what seems to be selling nowadays.

Pete

[fatttmannn]

Lots of us have been saying that for ages, Tony (Bigtoe) has apparently already offered his services to BSA but they are not interested, to be honest I think there customer service is shite anyway as I contacted them weeks ago about my Airsporter serial number and I've heard naff all back from them, not even a pointer to go and pester John Knibbs, now if you ask AA or HW for said info on your rifle, they normally come back to you very quickly with the details you require, I'm wondering if BSA are now going to start "scrapping the barrel" with all their rifles because the loss of John Bowkett from the fold, the thing I find strange is how BSA don't just drop ingenious and nostalgic rifles (the Airsporter and Spitfire for example) but also all of the underlevers from their range, leaving just two low budget low quality break barrels, the Supersport could easily replace the Meteor (as the size and weight are the same), which has gotten worse over the years with the inclusion of the crappy Gamo trigger and the Supersports is no better than it was either, the last Lightning I tried had a trigger blade made of bent metal.
The Airsporter still seemed to be going strong and was being refined even further with the rotary breech, all they needed was the trigger to be updated (and include the shot gun style safety as standard) and then offer it with a better stock and it would have been the flagship model again, they could have even offered it as a PCP as the Firebird was a rotary breech underlever and I'm sure the mechanics could have been transplanted into the Airsporters body, what an interesting step up the evolutionary ladder that would have been, being able to offer the highly well known and respected Airsporter in either spring or PCP, that would have blown El Tel's mind when he reviewed it in the mags, they could have even transplanted the Goldstar 10 shot mag system into it, I know a lot of people might be saying that I'm flogging a dead horse with this one but it just seems weird that they dropped making it altogether.

Pete

Pm sent e- the serial nimber of Airsporter. I have a Firebird pcp myself, mines a little different in that its been re- barelled to .20 and blueprinted by Mr Bowket, 3rd hand but still a very good performer. 100% on all of the above, its like BSA have given up!

[swelter]

Ive been reading this thread with interest, particularly with the references to Webley and BSA. My interest in airguns began as a schoolboy in the mid-sixties when most of the airguns I was aware of were various Dianas...the Milbro ones made in New Stevenson, near Motherwell in Scotland, mainly models 16, 22, 23, 25 and 27 and BSA Meteors and Webley Falcons....Mk3s and Airsporters were relatively rare and usually referred to in hushed, revered tones.

The most typical encounters with the Dianas and Meteors and what I guess were Cadets was at 'The Shows'...the travelling fairgrounds where the air rifle galleries were the biggest attraction to me and my pals who mainly were denied the pleasure of owning an airgun due to parental denial....and of course most of these were pretty knackered with dubious sights and barrels.

In those days, we had little or no knowledge of foreign manufacturers except for the Relum Tornados which could be bought from mail-order catalogues such as Empire Stores, Kays etc and Crossman pump-ups which reputedly banged a hole in a galvanised bin if you put in a dozen pumps. German makes were almost unheard of and remained a bit of a mystery.

I suppose many lads my age were interested in airguns at that time and quite a few of my friends bought them as we got into our late teens. I think, to a great extent, a fair bit of this interest in guns was generated by the plethora of
'Westerns', as they were called, on the telly.
In the fifties and sixties, between the BBC and ITV, there must have been about 20 different series including The Lone Ranger, Range Rider, Wells Fargo, Laramie, Boots and Saddles, Wagon Train, Gunsmoke, Bonanza and loads more.
I mention this because I feel this resulted in a ready-made market for airgun manufacturers and of course attitudes towards guns, shooting and hunting were much more relaxed and accepted. If you look at the advertising which was evident in all kinds of publications, Exchange and Mart, catalogues, magazines and comics at the time and of course in previous eras where newspapers would carry adverts depicting schoolboys resplendent in their Blazers and Caps, there was no denying where a large proportion of the market was targeted at. And of course this made financial sense to these manufacturers as it is a basic economic premise to engage new markets and customers.

However, due to gradual changes in attitudes, social behaviour, leisure opportunities, decline of engineering manufacturing industries, advancements in technology resulting in passive, sedentary recreation involving computers etc and legal restrictions which have occurred progressively (regressively?) from the early seventies, that market for selling airguns to an 'ever-recurring' new young customer base has diminished noticeably.

There is a distinct parallel in the decline of the British airgun industry and shooting in general and the virtual collapse of the British motorcycle industry. In many respects the BSA Airsporter and the Webley MK3 were the equivalent of the Triumph Bonneville 650 and the Norton Dominator 650 SS respectively. All of them had their origins in designs and materials emanating from the 1940's but using pre-war manufacturing processes. The Airsporter and the Bonneville being more stylish and the Webley and the Norton, arguably more substantial.
All of them were 'updated' with a succession of minor changes and specifications, usually on a cost-cutting basis and introducing plastic based components. And this 'evolutionary decline' of the Airsporter from the 50's into the mid-70s from the Mk1 to the Mk4/5 and the Bonneville, in particular is so evident where the earlier models are generally superior and held in greater regard.
To an extent Norton managed to succeed for a while with the Commando but they were living on borrowed time as they were mainly cosmetically updating an old design which had reached the end of it's practical development and couldn't compete with the technologically advanced offerings from Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, BMW and Ducati.

Webley, of course, replaced the Mk 3 Underlever with the Osprey Sidelever with its Beech stock and plastic components instead of the Walnut stock and metal components of the Mk3.....meanwhile, over the years, the target customer base
( mainly males in the 16-30 age range) is exponentially diminishing due to the factors previously mentioned plus, as far as bikes are concerned, cars becoming more affordable with ever-improving performance.

However, having said all that, it is extremely commendable that there has been a number of innovations and developments in the airgun industry and the motorcycle industry, for that matter, that have occurred in this country over the last 30 odd years or so, which have inspired great designs and mechanisms, but with a lowered production output. However, from a commercially viable point of view, sadly the market is no longer there to justify the costs of research and development and subsequent production on a substantial scale. These generational and social change factors that I have referred to have resulted in this present outcome and sadly I feel it's the end of an era.
I don't mean to sound negative, I'm just trying to be realistic and I think that many of us have to be grateful for living in a period of time where the products of engineering innovations and developments in many aspects of life...not just airguns.. have been available to us ( apart from Falke 90's..not enough of them made) and we should make the most of continuing to enjoy them while we can...C'est la Vie, Rodney!

Well said Vale Boy, a similar thing has happened to cameras if you dont produce new models ever year you lose your market share. In the 70's cameras it was 5 or 6 years before a new model came out.

[slug-gun]

I discovered very recently the Walther have just discontinued the beautifully made and therefore expensive Walther LGV Competition Ultra and LGV Master rifles!
They have been replaced with a similar break action rifle, but without open sights, and without the adjustable stock of the Ultra, and who knows what alterations inside?

Clearly these lovely rifles which received a large amount of research and development before reaching production, were simply too expensive to appeal to enough shooters prepared to appreciate and more pertinently pay for them.
As such their replacements are significantly less expensive.

The point is if Walther cannot sell a top quality air rifle at a price folk can/want to afford, there is little chance for anyone else, and the future for this kind of luxury product looks bleak!

It does mean though that anyone with an Ultra or Master, particularly the former, has a cast iron future collector's item.

[davymole]

Can only agree with the reply of vale boy ,but be it camera,s even mobile phones everything is designed to a price so unless you have the development facilities of the motor industry which we did not have in the end you will disapper .We in this country have designed and built plenty of items which have been world beaters but in the end its all gone abroad so will the last one standing switch the light off

[fatttmannn]

I discovered very recently the Walther have just discontinued the beautifully made and therefore expensive Walther LGV Competition Ultra and LGV Master rifles!
They have been replaced with a similar break action rifle, but without open sights, and without the adjustable stock of the Ultra, and who knows what alterations inside?

Clearly these lovely rifles which received a large amount of research and development before reaching production, were simply too expensive to appeal to enough shooters prepared to appreciate and more pertinently pay for them.
As such their replacements are significantly less expensive.

The point is if Walther cannot sell a top quality air rifle at a price folk can/want to afford, there is little chance for anyone else, and the future for this kind of luxury product looks bleak!

It does mean though that anyone with an Ultra or Master, particularly the former, has a cast iron future collector's item.

sad to hear that Chris, I love My Master in .22 and MTC scope, oh well, when I am gone another one to bring some money in for my Son when the collection is sold I suppose.