and they all shout "why buy a gun from europe"

[rogb]

Try reading it again. The difference is more likely to be what the EU dealer paid for the gun. 25% less purchase price make a huge difference to the price you pay. I have only ever paid tax on goods from outside of the EU.

Out of interest, have you ever turned round and said " Oh hang on, I might be wrong here?"
Cos we all pay VAT throughout the EU, unless we supply a UK business VAT reg no.
You are wrong, sunshine, VAT is not why we pay lower prices, as has been pointed out by Rob and Steve.

[Rob Edge]

Out of interest, have you ever turned round and said " Oh hang on, I might be wrong here?"
Cos we all pay VAT throughout the EU, unless we supply a UK business VAT reg no.
You are wrong, sunshine, VAT is not why we pay lower prices, as has been pointed out by Rob and Steve.

Is this personal? The reason I ask in my original post I did state that you would have to look into what price the EU supplier paid for the gun compared to the UK aswell as VAT. You choose not to tackle the main issue but latch onto VAT. Certainly seems personal to me.

[rogb]

Is this personal? The reason I ask in my original post I did state that you would have to look into what price the EU supplier paid for the gun compared to the UK aswell as VAT. You choose not to tackle the main issue but latch onto VAT. Certainly seems personal to me.

Great answer a tad paranoid, though but you are still wrong
Maybe EU dealers are charged less, which is why they are cheaper. Unless they are less greedy, who knows. The factory may give German dealers good rates based on stock shifted, all I know is we save huge amounts, thanks also to the hopeless Euro.
But VAT is not a factor in the reason for saving money plus we get door to door delivery at reasonable rates.
Warranty, however, is down to you, a downside if you aren't able to service them yourself.

[Snooper601]

Is this personal? The reason I ask in my original post I did state that you would have to look into what price the EU supplier paid for the gun compared to the UK aswell as VAT. You choose not to tackle the main issue but latch onto VAT. Certainly seems personal to me.

Go on, admit you're wrong about the vat, or don't you accept the fact that vat has nothing to do with the cheaper prices elsewhere in the EU?

Cheers

John

[RobF]

Is this personal? The reason I ask in my original post I did state that you would have to look into what price the EU supplier paid for the gun compared to the UK aswell as VAT. You choose not to tackle the main issue but latch onto VAT. Certainly seems personal to me.

No, it's not personal. It's you who keep mentioning VAT, and incorrectly, as a possible reason for the difference in prices. So every time you do, I just state the facts. No other issue.

[18 Wheeler]

...Well about 20% is the VAT that the Europeans aren't having to charge you...

UK sellers have to charge VAT if they are VAT registered. I don't recall paying tax with goods from the EU.

Is this personal? The reason I ask in my original post I did state that you would have to look into what price the EU supplier paid for the gun compared to the UK aswell as VAT. You choose not to tackle the main issue but latch onto VAT. Certainly seems personal to me.

No it's not personal, but you seem unable to admit your error. You cite two reasons for higher uk retail prices:
1. VAT
2. Price the retailer pays.

You're wrong on point 1 but now become selective with your responses. Hence the concensus of responses summed up by Snooper...

Go on, admit you're wrong about the vat, or don't you accept the fact that vat has nothing to do with the cheaper prices elsewhere in the EU?

We don't know the figures for 2.
Even if we accept that uk retailers are paying more than some EU retailers they should endeavour to lower that price. Forming collective buying groups, use non-UK wholesalers to buy and self import etc. Perhaps their trade organisation could assist. Innovate or die.

Unfortunately many uk shops would prefer to spend most of their day talking to the shop "barfly" bemoaning the lack of trade or treat customers dismissively.

[banksy!]

...use non-UK wholesalers to buy and self import etc.

This is great in theory, but then there is the warranty issue if they do not buy from the UK distributor.

You're probably aware of the problems that a large chain of dealers in the South West has had with importing HW's themselves. There is no proper warranty, as I found out to my cost, only the dealer's "own warranty" which turned out to be several trips to an unknown gunsmith who did not appear to know his way around an air rifle. Assurances were given when I purchased that in the event of a warranty claim, the gun would be sent back to Germany, but this never materialised on the grounds of cost.

In the end, I got a refund, but would not recommend this route to anyone.

[Rob Edge]

No it's not personal, but you seem unable to admit your error. You cite two reasons for higher uk retail prices:
1. VAT
2. Price the retailer pays.

You're wrong on point 1 but now become selective with your responses. Hence the concensus of responses summed up by Snooper...


We don't know the figures for 2.
Even if we accept that uk retailers are paying more than some EU retailers they should endeavour to lower that price. Forming collective buying groups, use non-UK wholesalers to buy and self import etc. Perhaps their trade organisation could assist. Innovate or die.

Unfortunately many uk shops would prefer to spend most of their day talking to the shop "barfly" bemoaning the lack of trade or treat customers dismissively.

I suggest you go away and study how different industries are affected by VAT registration. To make it simple I will explain why you are barking up the wrong tree. I was VAT registered until 2013. On the SCHEME that was applied to my company by HMRC we had to pay the VAT on goods bought and then pay HMRC the difference between what we collected and the amount we had paid. I clearly remember filling in the online forms which did all the calculations for you. If I have made an error in the way VAT is sorted on EU purchases made by you then how can I possibly know your business.

[longsider]

UK RFD's have put themselves in to a vicious circle of their own making . In the years before we looked into internet shopping etc they had the market cornered , either we bought off them or went without . Their mark up on everything was massive and they enjoyed big profits . As we started to look elsewhere they did nothing to be competitive and as their regular customers have disappeared every sale has become very important to them and to survive they need to make as much profit off every sale so their prices remain way above the MRRP . Their customers continue to vote with their feet and they still stand behind their counters and do nothing to turn things around . RFD's can bleat about why we should be buying from them but when they could have been earning our loyalty they concentrated on their profits and we owe them nothing.

There is no reason at all why they can't source products from the same manufacturers that the other European dealers use and at the same prices . They could already be doing just that and still not passing the savings to their customers or if they're not then why not ?
I buy my JSB Exact pellets from a UK dealer at £5.75 per tin . That dealer makes no secret about buying bulk from the manufacturer and then passes its massive savings straight on to myself and other customers. They could easily put more mark up on these pellets and still sell them but they don't .
As a retail manager for many years , with a company much larger than any RFD , I know very well that my pellet supplier has moved with the times and adopted a "buy them cheap and pile them high" strategy . They make more profit from selling countless units fast and cheap than less units at sky high prices in much the same way the company I work for his taking a hammering from aldi and lidl .
My RFD is selling the exact same pellets at £10.20 per tin . If he is buying at high prices and barely making any profit above his costs, as he would have me believe, I will help him by sourcing them for him . If he pays me £6.75 per tin of JSB's I will supply him with as many as he needs at that price . If he sells them for £8..20 per tin the remnants of his customer base will feel they are getting a great deal and they may even be fooled into a misguided sense of loyalty . Anybody with a computer and a internet account can now source products cheaper than their RFD and can now see how much their hard done by UK RFD has been taking them for a ride since they opened their doors .
If the difference in prices was marginal I would be the first to give them my support but unfortunately they are reaping what they have sown . I have given a example of a thriving UK based company with great prices and customer service so please don't use VAT to justify other RFD's high prices because my points above show it isn't always the case .

[Mog]

I suggest you go away and study how different industries are affected by VAT registration. To make it simple I will explain why you are barking up the wrong tree. I was VAT registered until 2013. On the SCHEME that was applied to my company by HMRC we had to pay the VAT on goods bought and then pay HMRC the difference between what we collected and the amount we had paid. I clearly remember filling in the online forms which did all the calculations for you. If I have made an error in the way VAT is sorted on EU purchases made by you then how can I possibly know your business.

No matter how many people try to explain to you how you are mistaken over the V.A.T. issue you won't or can't accept you're wrong, think it's more the latter (mrknowitalli'mneverwrong)

[RobF]

I suggest you go away and study how different industries are affected by VAT registration. To make it simple I will explain why you are barking up the wrong tree. I was VAT registered until 2013. On the SCHEME that was applied to my company by HMRC we had to pay the VAT on goods bought and then pay HMRC the difference between what we collected and the amount we had paid. I clearly remember filling in the online forms which did all the calculations for you. If I have made an error in the way VAT is sorted on EU purchases made by you then how can I possibly know your business.

Yes... that's exactly how it works. There's no SCHEME in conspiracy terms.

I buy product X at £1000 + VAT = £1200

I sell product X at £2000 + VAT = £2400

I have charged £400 VAT and I have paid £ 200 VAT. I give the HMRC £200 (£400 for the VAT collected minus the £200 I paid).



In the EU, to save complex to and from between different Tax offices in different countries, if you have a VAT number the foriegn company does not charge you VAT. In the small chance that there is an error and they do, you reclaim it back like you would do normally, as per above.

If I change the example...


I buy product X at £1000 + VAT = £1200

I sell product X at £500 + VAT = £600

I have charged £400 VAT and I have paid £ 200 VAT. The HMRC gives me £100 (£100 for the VAT collected minus the £200 I paid).


If you are not VAT registered, you pay VAT from the EU countries at their rate like you would do here.



There is nothing personal in this, you do not understand how VAT works. Which is quite surprising for someone who is VAT registered. But it is no different for any business. The rules apply to all. Both ways. We do the opposite when we deal with our EU clients.

[zanes]

There is nothing personal in this, you do not understand how VAT works. Which is quite surprising for someone who is VAT registered. But it is no different for any business. The rules apply to all. Both ways. We do the opposite when we deal with our EU clients.

I refer t'other Rob to my earlier advice

No, the UK retailer should either not pay VAT to the [foreign, which I missed originally] manufacturer OR if they are paying VAT (some businesses do insist on that even for VAT reg business to VAT reg business sales...) then the UK retailer should be reclaiming the VAT. That really is fundamental tax/business legislation and if an RFD isn't understanding/using that then they need to get a (better) accountant in first thing tomorrow morning to sort things out.

[RobF]

I refer t'other Rob to my earlier advice

Yes quite.

Seems if we'd roll back to 2013 there would be 2 potential clients out there for my other half, who is an accountant.

[zanes]

Yes quite.

Seems if we'd roll back to 2013 there would be 2 potential clients out there for my other half, who is an accountant.

Out of interest, what's the situation with UK VAT reg business to UK VAT reg business sales?

I'd got it in my head that in that situation VAT wouldn't be paid "between businesses" but now I'm really not sure. It'd make sense for it to be paid only at "point of sale to consumer" but I suspect there'd be a lot of fiddling in that case.

As an engineer we just let sales deal with that sort of stuff

[Rob Edge]

To all that suggest I am wrong. Do a search on google or HMRC to get an explanation of the various schemes applied. I can't be arsed with this anymore because as usual, the gang is right no matter what explanation is offered. Narrow minded is an understatement.