and they all shout "why buy a gun from europe"

[colin57]

UK RFD's have put themselves in to a vicious circle of their own making . In the years before we looked into internet shopping etc they had the market cornered , either we bought off them or went without . Their mark up on everything was massive and they enjoyed big profits . As we started to look elsewhere they did nothing to be competitive and as their regular customers have disappeared every sale has become very important to them and to survive they need to make as much profit off every sale so their prices remain way above the MRRP . Their customers continue to vote with their feet and they still stand behind their counters and do nothing to turn things around . RFD's can bleat about why we should be buying from them but when they could have been earning our loyalty they concentrated on their profits and we owe them nothing.

There is no reason at all why they can't source products from the same manufacturers that the other European dealers use and at the same prices . They could already be doing just that and still not passing the savings to their customers or if they're not then why not ?
I buy my JSB Exact pellets from a UK dealer at £5.75 per tin . That dealer makes no secret about buying bulk from the manufacturer and then passes its massive savings straight on to myself and other customers. They could easily put more mark up on these pellets and still sell them but they don't .
As a retail manager for many years , with a company much larger than any RFD , I know very well that my pellet supplier has moved with the times and adopted a "buy them cheap and pile them high" strategy . They make more profit from selling countless units fast and cheap than less units at sky high prices in much the same way the company I work for his taking a hammering from aldi and lidl .
My RFD is selling the exact same pellets at £10.20 per tin . If he is buying at high prices and barely making any profit above his costs, as he would have me believe, I will help him by sourcing them for him . If he pays me £6.75 per tin of JSB's I will supply him with as many as he needs at that price . If he sells them for £8..20 per tin the remnants of his customer base will feel they are getting a great deal and they may even be fooled into a misguided sense of loyalty . Anybody with a computer and a internet account can now source products cheaper than their RFD and can now see how much their hard done by UK RFD has been taking them for a ride since they opened their doors .
If the difference in prices was marginal I would be the first to give them my support but unfortunately they are reaping what they have sown . I have given a example of a thriving UK based company with great prices and customer service so please don't use VAT to justify other RFD's high prices because my points above show it isn't always the case .

What an excellent post, I think that you have said it all and hit the nail on the head!

[shauny]

UK RFD's have put themselves in to a vicious circle of their own making . In the years before we looked into internet shopping etc they had the market cornered , either we bought off them or went without . Their mark up on everything was massive and they enjoyed big profits . As we started to look elsewhere they did nothing to be competitive and as their regular customers have disappeared every sale has become very important to them and to survive they need to make as much profit off every sale so their prices remain way above the MRRP . Their customers continue to vote with their feet and they still stand behind their counters and do nothing to turn things around . RFD's can bleat about why we should be buying from them but when they could have been earning our loyalty they concentrated on their profits and we owe them nothing.

There is no reason at all why they can't source products from the same manufacturers that the other European dealers use and at the same prices . They could already be doing just that and still not passing the savings to their customers or if they're not then why not ?
I buy my JSB Exact pellets from a UK dealer at £5.75 per tin . That dealer makes no secret about buying bulk from the manufacturer and then passes its massive savings straight on to myself and other customers. They could easily put more mark up on these pellets and still sell them but they don't .
As a retail manager for many years , with a company much larger than any RFD , I know very well that my pellet supplier has moved with the times and adopted a "buy them cheap and pile them high" strategy . They make more profit from selling countless units fast and cheap than less units at sky high prices in much the same way the company I work for his taking a hammering from aldi and lidl .
My RFD is selling the exact same pellets at £10.20 per tin . If he is buying at high prices and barely making any profit above his costs, as he would have me believe, I will help him by sourcing them for him . If he pays me £6.75 per tin of JSB's I will supply him with as many as he needs at that price . If he sells them for £8..20 per tin the remnants of his customer base will feel they are getting a great deal and they may even be fooled into a misguided sense of loyalty . Anybody with a computer and a internet account can now source products cheaper than their RFD and can now see how much their hard done by UK RFD has been taking them for a ride since they opened their doors .
If the difference in prices was marginal I would be the first to give them my support but unfortunately they are reaping what they have sown . I have given a example of a thriving UK based company with great prices and customer service so please don't use VAT to justify other RFD's high prices because my points above show it isn't always the case .

well said that man!

[rogb]

To all that suggest I am wrong. Do a search on google or HMRC to get an explanation of the various schemes applied. I can't be arsed with this anymore because as usual, the gang is right no matter what explanation is offered. Narrow minded is an understatement.

Before you flounce off, can you comment about a real life gun purchase?
I bought my gun from Germany, I paid about £1300 (can't remember exactly) including German VAT at 19%.
I am not VAT registered, I must pay it.

The same gun is at Edinkillie (who are pretty poor at comms ) at £1951 including UK VAT at 20%

How is the VAT making the net price difference (bar the 1%)?

If you think I am not going to enjoy a £600 saving plus get great service from Germany, then you are mistaken

Of course I would NOT recommend this for anybody who is not willing to supply and fit parts themselves as needed, invalidating any warranty. I have just done a service on mine after 1 year of use with parts from another German supplier ( both names of German dealers withheld due to the forum owner's wishes). It is the best gun I have ever owned

[RobF]

To all that suggest I am wrong. Do a search on google or HMRC to get an explanation of the various schemes applied. I can't be arsed with this anymore because as usual, the gang is right no matter what explanation is offered. Narrow minded is an understatement.

No, you're wrong. I have been running a VAT business trading internationally for the past 20 years. My other half is also an accountant.

https://www.gov.uk/vat-imports-acqui...es-from-abroad

If you’re registered for VAT in the UK and receive goods from other countries in the EU you’ll normally pay VAT at the time the goods come into the UK. You’ll need to pay VAT at the same rate that you would have paid if you had acquired them from a UK supplier. This VAT is known as acquisition tax and you can normally reclaim this if the acquisitions relate to VAT taxable supplies that you make.

Perhaps you would like to link directly to the scheme that corroborates your opinion that you cannot claim VAT back or that EU sellers dont charge VAT? (obviously the paradox of sellers abroad not charging vat and us not being able to claim this non existent vat back aside )

[Rob Edge]

No, you're wrong. I have been running a VAT business trading internationally for the past 20 years. My other half is also an accountant.

https://www.gov.uk/vat-imports-acqui...es-from-abroad


Perhaps you would like to link directly to the scheme that corroborates your opinion that you cannot claim VAT back or that EU sellers dont charge VAT? (obviously the paradox of sellers abroad not charging vat and us not being able to claim this non existent vat back aside )

A good start for your reading. Be prepared for being made to look silly. Each of these schemes can be tailored by HMRC for a different type of business. https://www.mybusinessworks.co.uk/as...planations.pdf
As an aside could you please enlighten me as to when I stated you cannot claim VAT back. I have gone through all of the posts and can't find it anywhere.

[RobF]

As an aside could you please enlighten me as to when I stated you cannot claim VAT back. I have gone through all of the posts and can't find it anywhere.

Sure, when you said there's a difference in how a UK has to pay VAT. That's what you imply. Of course if there's no difference, then what are you on about?

Well about 20% is the VAT that the Europeans aren't having to charge you. Other than that you would have to look at the price the UK dealer has to pay to put a German gun on the shelf compared to the same gun bought for a German dealer.

Try reading it again. The difference is more likely to be what the EU dealer paid for the gun. 25% less purchase price make a huge difference to the price you pay. I have only ever paid tax on goods from outside of the EU.

It's really simple. Excuse the caps but it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

IF YOU ARE VAT REG'd YOU EITHER DONT PAY VAT IN THE EU (INC) UK OR YOU DO AND CLAIM IT BACK OR YOUR SCHEME TAKES IT INTO ACCOUNT BY REDUCING THE VAT RATE YOU PAY

IF YOU ARE NOT VAT REG'd YOU PAY VAT IN THE EU (INC) UK AND CANT CLAIM IT BACK

There is no don't have to. If you are VAT regd you HAVE to charge. If you aren't VAT reg'd YOU CANT CLAIM IT BACK.


Of course if you don't say there's a difference in VAT, then we know UK dealers and customers are the same as EU ones don't we?


The 'schemes' you refer to are just more simply ways to pay the VAT. They don't change the fundamental difference of claiming and charging VAT. What some of them do is attempt to make the calculations of VAT easier by applying a flat rate style guestimate on your VATable sales. But either way, they still have to reflect the basic collection vs cost of VAT and your true VAT liability. That does not change. It actually says " the percentage is less than the standard VAT rate because it takes into account the fact that you are not reclaiming VAT on your purchases. " Note the percentage is less bit. It also says one of the disadvantages is you don't reclaim VAT. So if that's so chuffing important (ie you were going to stick your neck out on an internet forum about griping about not claiming VAT) you wouldn't choose it would you? Not unless you or your advisers didn't understand VAT.



This still doesn't answer the paradox of dealers paying VAT when apparently from the EU you never have. Or was it because you never have because you were VAT registered perhaps?


Now, do you agree there is no VAT problem with UK vs EU or not?

[Mog]

You might be surprised but the Germans DO charge you VAT, 19%, on each and every item or service I have bought from there over the years, this is much needed to keep certain countries afloat and I am always delighted to pay it!
I honestly don't know where you get these notions from, but not from personal experience, I'm hazarding a guess?

......of course it's only 5% if your rifle is described as a sanitary tampon.

[Rich]

Example. I would like a Steyr H5. The best price in this country is about £1725 and then I have to pay extra for the quick-fill which brings it up to about £1760. Then I have to travel to collect it or pay a RFD handling charge and a courier. Call it £1800. That is all inclusive of VAT at the UK rate of 20%.

If I enquire of a dealer in Holland, he quotes me under 1800 euros ex his shop and that includes Dutch VAT at 21%. It also includes the quick fill as he doesn't see the point of selling them as an extra, as virtually everybody wants one. He does charge for courier service to my door, tracked all the way, another 13.50 euros.

All up that comes to about £1300 at today's exchange rate.

Bear in mind, both the UK seller and the Dutch seller have had to source the same rifle from Austria, subject to whatever tax the Austrians apply. For Austria, both count as "foreign" sales. The ex works price in euros would be the same to both of them, subject to any volume discounts etc. At the moment the Dutch guy is in a very strong position to ask for better terms as he is shifting so many.

[Rob Edge]

Sure, when you said there's a difference in how a UK has to pay VAT. That's what you imply. Of course if there's no difference, then what are you on about?







It's really simple. Excuse the caps but it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

IF YOU ARE VAT REG'd YOU EITHER DONT PAY VAT IN THE EU (INC) UK OR YOU DO AND CLAIM IT BACK OR YOUR SCHEME TAKES IT INTO ACCOUNT BY REDUCING THE VAT RATE YOU PAY

IF YOU ARE NOT VAT REG'd YOU PAY VAT IN THE EU (INC) UK AND CANT CLAIM IT BACK

There is no don't have to. If you are VAT regd you HAVE to charge. If you aren't VAT reg'd YOU CANT CLAIM IT BACK.


Of course if you don't say there's a difference in VAT, then we know UK dealers and customers are the same as EU ones don't we?


The 'schemes' you refer to are just more simply ways to pay the VAT. They don't change the fundamental difference of claiming and charging VAT. What some of them do is attempt to make the calculations of VAT easier by applying a flat rate style guestimate on your VATable sales. But either way, they still have to reflect the basic collection vs cost of VAT and your true VAT liability. That does not change. It actually says " the percentage is less than the standard VAT rate because it takes into account the fact that you are not reclaiming VAT on your purchases. " Note the percentage is less bit. It also says one of the disadvantages is you don't reclaim VAT. So if that's so chuffing important (ie you were going to stick your neck out on an internet forum about griping about not claiming VAT) you wouldn't choose it would you? Not unless you or your advisers didn't understand VAT.



This still doesn't answer the paradox of dealers paying VAT when apparently from the EU you never have. Or was it because you never have because you were VAT registered perhaps?


Now, do you agree there is no VAT problem with UK vs EU or not?

Firstly you say there are no schemes then there are. Now you are unable to say when I said about not paying VAT. Confused
This has nothing to do with the thread and you sure have a bee in your bonnet about explaining what I had said about paying VAT in the first place, which you said you didn't as a VAT registered business. Lets leave it at that.

[rogb]

Example. I would like a Steyr H5. The best price in this country is about £1725 and then I have to pay extra for the quick-fill which brings it up to about £1760. Then I have to travel to collect it or pay a RFD handling charge and a courier. Call it £1800. That is all inclusive of VAT at the UK rate of 20%.

If I enquire of a dealer in Holland, he quotes me under 1800 euros ex his shop and that includes Dutch VAT at 21%. It also includes the quick fill as he doesn't see the point of selling them as an extra, as virtually everybody wants one. He does charge for courier service to my door, tracked all the way, another 13.50 euros.

All up that comes to about £1300 at today's exchange rate.

Bear in mind, both the UK seller and the Dutch seller have had to source the same rifle from Austria, subject to whatever tax the Austrians apply. For Austria, both count as "foreign" sales. The ex works price in euros would be the same to both of them, subject to any volume discounts etc. At the moment the Dutch guy is in a very strong position to ask for better terms as he is shifting so many.

The only minus point Rich is you need any warranty work you will have a hard ( and expensive) time getting it sent back to either Steyr or the Dutch lot.
If you can sort the work at your own expense, then yes good savings are there. Especially if you just don't pay the VAT, like me and hundreds of others have done.

[18 Wheeler]

...Well about 20% is the VAT that the Europeans aren't having to charge you...

Hard to read that as anything other than "Europeans don't charge VAT" to answer your second query below.

Firstly you say there are no schemes then there are. Now you are unable to say when I said about not paying VAT. Confused
This has nothing to do with the thread ...

VAT Schemes are simply payment options for VAT due, nothing more or less.

They don't alter the total charge liable, VAT is being paid on all EU purchases.

Hence it has no pricing implication and as such is relevant to the thread.

UK retailers are not at a tax disadvantage which appeared to be one of your twin pillars approach to support UK pricing.

[RobF]

Firstly you say there are no schemes then there are. Now you are unable to say when I said about not paying VAT. Confused
This has nothing to do with the thread and you sure have a bee in your bonnet about explaining what I had said about paying VAT in the first place, which you said you didn't as a VAT registered business. Lets leave it at that.

Ok. Happy to.

There's no difference in EU vs UK in VAT.

The difference in price must be elsewhere.

[Rob Edge]

Hard to read that as anything other than "Europeans don't charge VAT" to answer your second query below.


VAT Schemes are simply payment options for VAT due, nothing more or less.

They don't alter the total charge liable, VAT is being paid on all EU purchases.

Hence it has no pricing implication and as such is relevant to the thread.

UK retailers are not at a tax disadvantage which appeared to be one of your twin pillars approach to support UK pricing.

In as simple terms as I can put it. Firstly I said a business pays vat on purchases and I was wrong. Now apparently that bit might be right reading what you people are posting. The schemes (the same ones which allow for payment or non payment of vat) which didn't exist in the early put down answers now do exist but they are only payment options.
Now people are saying the difference in price must be elsewhere. Did I not say that the difference must be what a UK business has to pay, don't forget the plus vat, and a German company has to pay, plus vat. Because people like things in figures.
UK trade price £100+VAT@20%+margin+VAT at point of sale=
Non UK trade price say £80+VAT@20%+margin+VAT at point of sale=
Now even an idiot can see that the problem lies with the difference in supply price. The VAT only pushes the difference to the retail customer even higher.

[smudger1234]

UK RFD's have put themselves in to a vicious circle of their own making . In the years before we looked into internet shopping etc they had the market cornered , either we bought off them or went without . Their mark up on everything was massive and they enjoyed big profits .

Prove it. I am fairly confident you would be surprised how little margin there is.

There is no reason at all why they can't source products from the same manufacturers that the other European dealers use and at the same prices . They could already be doing just that and still not passing the savings to their customers or if they're not then why not ?

Exclusive import rights for some brands. Ability to carry out warranty work ect. Big orders are required in bulk therefore storage issues (and license and insurance issues for amount of guns on premises). Also when the exchange rates are unfavourable the UK supplier is hardly going to let them open an account....

I buy my JSB Exact pellets from a UK dealer at £5.75 per tin . That dealer makes no secret about buying bulk from the manufacturer and then passes its massive savings straight on to myself and other customers. They could easily put more mark up on these pellets and still sell them but they don't .
As a retail manager for many years , with a company much larger than any RFD , I know very well that my pellet supplier has moved with the times and adopted a "buy them cheap and pile them high" strategy . They make more profit from selling countless units fast and cheap than less units at sky high prices in much the same way the company I work for his taking a hammering from aldi and lidl .

This business model makes little sense in a small industry. What your supplier has done is chosen one product. You could not do this for all products, you would need a massive warehouse. If a small industry is to adopt this model you get each person selling a different product cheap. In the end you cant go to one place to get everything...

My RFD is selling the exact same pellets at £10.20 per tin . If he is buying at high prices and barely making any profit above his costs, as he would have me believe.

For small businesses (especially if they have a decent retail front - not service counter at a warehouse) they make more margin on lower value goods. It is simple economics. Because a big mail order guy (specialising in pellets) is prepare to make say 10% on orders doesn't mean that it is sustainable for your local dealer to match it. 100% margin on products under 10pounds

I will help him by sourcing them for him . If he pays me £6.75 per tin of JSB's I will supply him with as many as he needs at that price . If he sells them for £8..20 per tin the remnants of his customer base will feel they are getting a great deal and they may even be fooled into a misguided sense of loyalty .

Pays you 6.75 per tin. Sells them on at 8.20 - pays therefore 1.64 VAT on the sale. Therefore money he gets (before paying staff, rates, insurance etc) is actually a loss of 19p for every tin. See how difficult business is.

There was a shop a few years ago that was doing pellets extremely cheap and selling loads, also rifles were cheaper than everywhere else (and diving bottles - but they were a diving shop). They told me pellets were at 5% margin to get people in the shop and guns at 7.5%. They hoped people would buy accessories at higher margins, but in reality people went elsewhere. Shop no longer sells gun things.... It was not a sustainable model.

[Rich]

If the business is VAT registered you don't need to mention the VAT on the wholesale price as that is recovered by the final seller as an input tax.

I guess you do mean the example to be based on a VAT registered trader otherwise they wouldn't be charging VAT on the sale price.