and they all shout "why buy a gun from europe"

[Jonnymac]

Some very interesting views here. I think I agree with the majority. Where service and value is good I try and use them. There are at least a couple of local-ish dealers that I have offered the opportunity of my business. They were pretty shocking in their responses. One I rang recently for a gun that they had in stock. I told them it was available elsewhere locally for a significant saving over their cost and gave them the opportunity to sweeten the deal. A slip or a couple of tins of pellets, £20 off? Either would have secured my business, and I wanted to spend my money there because I do want to support my RFD. They just told me to go buy it at the other place......so that is what I did.
The other wS for a wolverine/ scope combo. Same scenario. He said no. Couldn't sweeten the deal on a £1600 sale to the tune of £20!!!! Obviously I didn't buy it and wouldn't buy anything from there again. Yes I understand margins, 90% of the profit ( assuming 10% discount, before you even factor in goods to the value of, which each have margins in) is better than FA of no sale. That my friends, is just plain business sense. In the second example it was nearer 1%!!!
Conversely there are some very good dealers out there. The safety on my rifle broke today and the guy in the shop fixed it for me and set my trigger into the bargain and refused to take any payment. I'd use them anytime in the future and was the cheaper RFD I mentioned in the opening example.
Just my 2 cents worth

[Carl2]

I purchased an LGV Comp Ultra .177 from Pellpax the price has been listed for ages as £364 it was delivered to my house face to face on a Sunday. Would I really have saved a fortune if I had ordered from Europe? I have no connection whatsoever with this company but i was very pleased with all aspects of this transaction.

I definitely do not have any spare cash to throw around but my dad always had a few guns around the house, he called them his babies he got rid of them before he died so I brought this gun just as a memento.

I do think buying from Europe is a brilliant idea but wonder what happens if you are out when they try to deliver? this is the only thing holding me back at the moment. Oh and having no spare cash.

[nimrod177]

This is tedious that every one slags off every rfd. I am sure that there are good and bad alike out there, easy answer vote with your feet. What some do not comprehend is the fact that nearly all rfd's are supplied by a SUPPLIER (mostly) or from the manufacturer. This is the bit that falls down. I was recently asked to get a price for a rifle (i will not provide names for commercial reasons) I phoned the supplier and was given the price to me plus vat and in no uncertain terms told that if i retailed it cheaper i would not be supplied with any more air rifles end of. For those that complain 20% is a good margin then fine, just remember that 20% is not on all guns, some are as little as %5. If an rfd sells 1 rifle in a day at 20% of a £100 rifle then £20 doesn't even cover the costs of his wages. 20% of £1000 gave him £200 but yesterday he made £20 so he was down on wages yesterday by say, based on minimum wage and an 8 hour day ish (time on the shop floor only)£40. So now we have £220 over two days sounds good. 2 days wages at £120 leaves £100 to cover all the overheads including non domestic rates, commercial rent, water, electric, another employees wages at minimum wage (oh sorry that's another £120 on wages alone) he is now running at a loss. Wouldn't it be nice if he sold a £1000 rifle every day, then he can afford to lower his prices a bit. Unfortunately he sells a lot more cheaper rifles like the hatsans and gammo's than the top end rifles. He is then told by the supplier that he has to sell them at such and such a price. But you as the public don't like this as you believe he is overcharging so buy from abroad, now he has lost another customer. Lets not get into the bit about, excuse me mate can you get in a £1000 rifle for me to buy. Yes sir, i can do that for you, will be a week. Ok. Phone up to tell customer said rifle is in to be told sorry mate found it cheaper or got one second hand now so don't need it. Even if he can return it to supplier he is still charged for postage etc. That's another £30 out of his day.
Really how many 2k rifles do you think get sold in a week or even a fortnight, trust me, not that many. Yesterday i sold 2 stoegers @ about £140 one second hand Co2 pistol at £43 and took a deposit on an air ranger, 3 tins of pellets. My boss will still have to pay the rent rates etc. I love this sport and will spend a considerable time with a customer explaining how the rifle works, setting up a scope, cleaning, safe ranges etc etc. In fact 2 hours yesterday and near emptied the rack of rifles for the customer to try out various rifles for feel etc. He didn't buy one but will be getting back to me in a few days. Hopefully he will, but it is a £240 rifle he is looking at. I make no deference between a customer buying a £100 rifle to a £2000 rifle, they will all get the same attention to detail and service. I know that not all rfds are this dedicated to selling air rifles but then it is my passion for them that got me taken on in the first place. Trust me gentlemen it is not always down to the rfd what the sale price is set at.

[larrylamppost]

you have said what i couldn't be bothered to type.
i too have dealt with the company which will end supply if you discount,i even know the rifle you are talking about.where does that leave the retailer?,he's damned either way.

[carty87]

Not meaning to sound thick nimrod, but would your boss not e better looking to buy them in from abroad himself?

Also I was under the impression that fixing market prices was illegal? Petrol companies etc have been fined in the past for forming cartels and fixing the market.

I don't wish to sound provocative in what I say but perhaps your boss is pretty happy charging the uk market price as it keeps his margins at a decent percentage.

It would take a collective of like minded shops within an area to look to import their own rifles and cut out the supplier, but I suspect most shops are quite happy rinsing as much profit out of each item as possible as I can imagine shops don't sell many on a daily basis.

[secretagentmole]

This is tedious that every one slags off every rfd. I am sure that there are good and bad alike out there, easy answer vote with your feet. What some do not comprehend is the fact that nearly all rfd's are supplied by a SUPPLIER (mostly) or from the manufacturer. This is the bit that falls down. I was recently asked to get a price for a rifle (i will not provide names for commercial reasons) I phoned the supplier and was given the price to me plus vat and in no uncertain terms told that if i retailed it cheaper i would not be supplied with any more air rifles end of. For those that complain 20% is a good margin then fine, just remember that 20% is not on all guns, some are as little as %5. If an rfd sells 1 rifle in a day at 20% of a £100 rifle then £20 doesn't even cover the costs of his wages. 20% of £1000 gave him £200 but yesterday he made £20 so he was down on wages yesterday by say, based on minimum wage and an 8 hour day ish (time on the shop floor only)£40. So now we have £220 over two days sounds good. 2 days wages at £120 leaves £100 to cover all the overheads including non domestic rates, commercial rent, water, electric, another employees wages at minimum wage (oh sorry that's another £120 on wages alone) he is now running at a loss. Wouldn't it be nice if he sold a £1000 rifle every day, then he can afford to lower his prices a bit. Unfortunately he sells a lot more cheaper rifles like the hatsans and gammo's than the top end rifles. He is then told by the supplier that he has to sell them at such and such a price. But you as the public don't like this as you believe he is overcharging so buy from abroad, now he has lost another customer. Lets not get into the bit about, excuse me mate can you get in a £1000 rifle for me to buy. Yes sir, i can do that for you, will be a week. Ok. Phone up to tell customer said rifle is in to be told sorry mate found it cheaper or got one second hand now so don't need it. Even if he can return it to supplier he is still charged for postage etc. That's another £30 out of his day.
Really how many 2k rifles do you think get sold in a week or even a fortnight, trust me, not that many. Yesterday i sold 2 stoegers @ about £140 one second hand Co2 pistol at £43 and took a deposit on an air ranger, 3 tins of pellets. My boss will still have to pay the rent rates etc. I love this sport and will spend a considerable time with a customer explaining how the rifle works, setting up a scope, cleaning, safe ranges etc etc. In fact 2 hours yesterday and near emptied the rack of rifles for the customer to try out various rifles for feel etc. He didn't buy one but will be getting back to me in a few days. Hopefully he will, but it is a £240 rifle he is looking at. I make no deference between a customer buying a £100 rifle to a £2000 rifle, they will all get the same attention to detail and service. I know that not all rfds are this dedicated to selling air rifles but then it is my passion for them that got me taken on in the first place. Trust me gentlemen it is not always down to the rfd what the sale price is set at.

Yet when one gun shop can sell a rifle at £69 and say they are making money on that sale and another sells the same rifle at £110 and refuses to discount?

[larrylamppost]

Not meaning to sound thick nimrod, but would your boss not e better looking to buy them in from abroad himself?

Also I was under the impression that fixing market prices was illegal? Petrol companies etc have been fined in the past for forming cartels and fixing the market.

I don't wish to sound provocative in what I say but perhaps your boss is pretty happy charging the uk market price as it keeps his margins at a decent percentage.

It would take a collective of like minded shops within an area to look to import their own rifles and cut out the supplier, but I suspect most shops are quite happy rinsing as much profit out of each item as possible as I can imagine shops don't sell many on a daily basis.

have you any idea how much profit there is in an air rifle?
the company in question DO fix the price on one of their products at £899.99,if any rfd discounts it the supplier will stop supply and shut your account.
the margins can be very small,if you are an fx dealer for example you can expect to make about £60 per sale.john rothery (air arms) aren't much better with a tx200 costing around £400 trade.
if the rfd retails shotguns he can expect to do a little better,i used to retail them at £150 over trade.if you try and get more then you get no sales,£150 a gun may sound ok until you factor in all the expenses.
most rfd's are having a hard time.FACT.

[nimrod177]

Not meaning to sound thick nimrod, but would your boss not e better looking to buy them in from abroad himself?

Also I was under the impression that fixing market prices was illegal? Petrol companies etc have been fined in the past for forming cartels and fixing the market.

I don't wish to sound provocative in what I say but perhaps your boss is pretty happy charging the uk market price as it keeps his margins at a decent percentage.

It would take a collective of like minded shops within an area to look to import their own rifles and cut out the supplier, but I suspect most shops are quite happy rinsing as much profit out of each item as possible as I can imagine shops don't sell many on a daily basis.

my boss does on some but others he can't. You would complain if it had to go back for warranty and it took weeks for the repair to be done rather than days. You pays your price and takes your chances as they say. "grey imports"
My boss gives the best deals he can to stay in business. I can not comment on the bosses of other shops and what they wish to put their prices at. What you have to remember those that buy few pay higher prices than those that buy many. The down side is that the euro goes up as well as down. If you want a number of guns when the price is down then great you can reduce the price you charge. However if you have bought the items at a higher price then it goes down you can not then sell the item at a loss.
If the like minded shops get together then the manufacturer may decide not to sell to them at all. Where do you store the rifles etc that are bought in bulk? Who is then responsible for insurance etc etc. It is a minefield but would be nice if it were possible.

[nimrod177]

Yet when one gun shop can sell a rifle at £69 and say they are making money on that sale and another sells the same rifle at £110 and refuses to discount?

Depends where they get their supply from. If they do not normally stock the rifle or sell many then the price will come without a discount from the supplier. They may have to get it from another rfd who then has to put their profit on top. If they didn't do this then they would be selling a gun for what they paid and all the papwer work and time entailed in the process. Then it also depends on their overheads. Rent non-dom's etc how many staff they employ. Really if you think it is that easy to discount a gun then by all means start up an rfd and try for yourself. This is not a dig but for every ten customers that you possibly deal with then maybe only one or two will buy. They must all be dealt with in the same manner even if it is just passing curiosity that has brought them through the door. Please give an example of the rifle you mention and the shops in question. I do not know of many air rifles (quality wise) at £69. You do not know why the retailer is knocking them out at that price and why the other retailer has to sell them at the price he does. The first one may have managed to get hold of bankrupt stock clearance yet the second is buying from the supplier at full price
How do you know he is making a small, medium or larger profit. Is he in a larger catchment area where footfall is greater or smaller. All considerations in retail that have to be taken into account.

[DJP]

i'm struggling too even though i live in 'affluent' surrey,i have no mortgage because i worked my arse off and got that noose from around my neck.i drive a tatty little car but i absolutely WILL NOT buy from abroad,i support my local rfd and always will.end of.

I too live mortgage-free in affluent Surreh but I shan't be buying from my local dealers because they provide excremental service at inflated prices.

If it were a few quid and they were pleasant about it, I wouldn't mind.

But it isn't and they're not.

So they can poke it.

[nimrod177]

Not meaning to sound thick nimrod, but would your boss not e better looking to buy them in from abroad himself?

Also I was under the impression that fixing market prices was illegal? Petrol companies etc have been fined in the past for forming cartels and fixing the market.

I don't wish to sound provocative in what I say but perhaps your boss is pretty happy charging the uk market price as it keeps his margins at a decent percentage.

It would take a collective of like minded shops within an area to look to import their own rifles and cut out the supplier, but I suspect most shops are quite happy rinsing as much profit out of each item as possible as I can imagine shops don't sell many on a daily basis.

Rfds are not tescos. They do not operate on every street corner. Exactly how many rfd's do you think there are in any one town compared to tescos? The rifles have to come via parcel force etc not by a articulated lorry dropping off on multiple drops. My boss tries to give the best deals possible when he can. And to be fair i admire him a little for that. There are some in other business's that are that big they couldn't care less about a handful of customers wanting a cheaper price. The gun trade is a niche market. And some do their very best to provide a good service and competitive price when they can. Guns are very limited on their return value/profit margin. The rfd usually makes up some of the monies on the sundry items associated with the sale. Trouble with this is a customer that already owns a rifle usually owns the sundry bits and bobs as well. Remember that a stoeger x20s atac comes complete in the box with scope and mounts. The customer walks through the door wanting a cheap air rifle so picks a stoeger package deal. The rfd has lost the price of a scope and mounts. Yes the customer may want pellets and a gun bag but a gun bag can be sold for £11.99 and a tin of pellets at as low as £5. The customer isn't interested in the pellets being accurate or that it may not be the best quality rifle in the shop. They are interested in a cheap air rifle for their child to back garden plink.

[Rob Edge]

Its nice to read about so many people supporting British retailers, not. Hope you all sleep soundly in the knowledge that your actions will be the downfall of your own sport. Are you the same people who complain about too many Eastern Europeans being in this country, then take your car to the local Romanian car wash. This is not just about saving a few quid, its about the staff that are employed in the shops who get the bullet when the shop closes down. Please bare in mind the families of the UK staff when saving your next few quid.

[look no hands]

I was recently asked to get a price for a rifle (i will not provide names for commercial reasons) I phoned the supplier and was given the price to me plus vat and in no uncertain terms told that if i retailed it cheaper i would not be supplied with any more air rifles end of.

Then may be it's time something should be done about this sort of thing, if a few RFD's did sell the rifle cheaper and was struck off the suppliers list then the supplier is losing business as well, like you say how many £899.99 rifles do you sell in a week and if RFD's get a bit miffed with the service then the supplier will soon have a warehouse full of rifles they aren't shifting and then that goes back down the chain to the maker, in the end the shops won't bother buying the rifles and will recommend other makes instead and will talk customers out of buying said rifle if they come in asking about them, there are plenty of decent PCP's nowadays (I take it it's a PCP as I can't imagine a springer costing that much) so the quality and choice is available else where, if the public can vote with their feet then surely so can the shop, if they all brought from Europe then the supplier would soon be asking himself why no one is buying from him, it's all down to supply and demand.

Pete

[nimrod177]

Then may be it's time something should be done about this sort of thing, if a few RFD's did sell the rifle cheaper and was struck off the suppliers list then the supplier is losing business as well, like you say how many £899.99 rifles do you sell in a week and if RFD's get a bit miffed with the service then the supplier will soon have a warehouse full of rifles they aren't shifting and then that goes back down the chain to the maker, in the end the shops won't bother buying the rifles and will recommend other makes instead and will talk customers out of buying said rifle if they come in asking about them, there are plenty of decent PCP's nowadays (I take it it's a PCP as I can't imagine a springer costing that much) so the quality and choice is available else where, if the public can vote with their feet then surely so can the shop, if they all brought from Europe then the supplier would soon be asking himself why no one is buying from him, it's all down to supply and demand.

Pete

You can recommend to a customer all you want but if they want a particular item then you will provide it. I dealt with a customer who wanted a Co2 air pistol for shooting rabbits and rats etc. I informed him that they were not suitable for shooting live animals. His response was "well my mate hits them every time if you won't sell me one i will go to someone that will". I assume he has gone elsewhere but i have still lost a sale. That fortunately was not the only sale of the day. You are not going to turn down a sale no matter, unless you have a conscience. The suppliers have the upper hand not the retailers. The retailer can make a small profit so he will provide the goods, especially if it is the only rifle that day he is going to sell. If the shops do not supply the rifle then the customers will complain that they don't have a very good selection and will shop elsewhere. The shop looses money and goes out of business. The retailer does not set the rrp. He can do deals and i will always do a deal if i can, but again, if they only want a rifle and my hands are tied to a price then i will only sell it for that price. Answer: come in and buy a combo deal and get money off elsewhere.
If we all bought from Europe one week at say £100 a rifle and retailed at £200 inc vat then the following month the rifle from Europe cost £150 you would still be unhappy that you could have bought it the previous week for £50 less but now its gone up and so has the vat etc. So has the fuel duty to get it here etc. If it goes down but you haven't sold your older stock bought at £100 you end up selling under two different prices or suffering a loss on the older stock. No retailer will suffer a loss. Hey but the foreign shops are selling for the same price they were last month because the exchange rate doesn't effect them selling in their own country. This applies to the foreign shops buying from the uk as well so i'm not saying it is just one way. But then their fuel, taxes overheads etc are on the whole a lot less than the uk. But that is the rfds fault as well because we obviously govern tax, rates, fuel, minimum wage, parcel force (vcr act) electricity prices, water rates, gas rates. Guys give the rfds a break if you can and support them. They may not all be perfect but the majority will do the best they can to help out. I most certainly will do all i can even if it isn't always the advice a customer wants to hear (Co2 air pistols for rabbits and rats at 30 yds!).

[18 Wheeler]

... I was recently asked to get a price for a rifle (i will not provide names for commercial reasons) I phoned the supplier and was given the price to me plus vat and in no uncertain terms told that if i retailed it cheaper i would not be supplied with any more air rifles end of...

Which is clearly illegal (Competition Act 1998 Sec2 etc), even accepting such terms equates to collusion in price maintenance.

It's a serious problem in UK retail and widespread, so I'm not criticising you but rather pointing out that many importers/wholesalers are distorting the market, the Edge seems to think it's the buyer's fault.

UK retailers costs are also high, but many also seem stuck to their old business model with in town locations etc. Solware by contrast have a small unit on a small industrial estate and pack it high sell it "cheap", good customer service and pricing mean they do well, although a quick browse of their website will show which uk importers are engaged in restrictive price maintenance.