Scottish Law and New Cert

[Robo]

Morning All,

I was Just was wondering what everyone intends to do with this possible new law coming in up here in Scotland?

I have not been following it too closely but I wondered if anyone knows if the law is now a formality and we are waiting for it to kick in next year or, would a good QC be able to reverse or challenge the decision, or reform the rules? I know BASC was lobbying, but does anyone know how much actual cash they spent on the process or if they just sent allot of emails? I'm not trying or wanting to offend anyone at BASC, so please don't take it that way, but it would be good to know what level they took it to. Petitions are normally a waste of paper - but a good QC...they can cause allot of pain!

I'm also wondering if I should now crank up the power on my HW 100 to say 13lbs and have it sit on an FAC. I assume this is OK?

My problem with this law is that I always opted for an Air Riffle for the simplicity of it. Ammo is cheap and there is no regulatory cost or admin. Now that the government are creating a burden - there is no longer any incentive to stick with an Air Riffle and thus, they have removed the regulatory disincentive for me to get an FAC.

So I'm thinking about getting a .22LR for general shooting rabbits and a 2.43 or 2.70 for deer stalking, although I'm leaning toward the 2.70 for Red stags, as I think the 2.43 is OK for Red Hinds, but too light for Stags. I live close to some great Stalking (Reds, Fallow and Roe), so it should not be too difficult to get a license.

So, if I get the power increased on the air riffle so that it sits at FAC level, am I correct in thinking; I don't have to mess around with the the air gun certificate...or would I need:

1. Air riffle certificate for my FAC air riffle, and
2. FAC for the .22 and the 2.70?

I'm assuming it's only the FAC I would need? Even then, the daft thing about this legislation is that the legislation's net effect on me (and I expect allot of people in the air gun community) will be an upgrade to FAC. In my situation, I will be upgrading to FAC, buying two new high powered riffles, one of which is extremely powerful, and I will be increasing the power on my current air riffle...so I will own more guns with more power, as there is no longer any disincentive to get the FAC. The American Gun Lobby must think this Scottish Air Riffle Legislation is great - a home run - the Scottish Government are shooting themselves in the foot - pun intended!

Thoughts?

Best regards

R

[tacfoley]

I was Just was wondering what everyone intends to do with this possible new law coming in up here in Scotland?....Now that the government are creating a burden
R

Faintly interesting subject, but, alas, nothing to do with me, pal, or anybody else that doesn't live in the same country as you do. I live - if that's the right word to use - in England. It's YOUR government, not mine. After all, the majority of you voted for the SNP, I didn't. You are already a foreign country with your own laws on education, taxation, money-making, legal system and new firearms legislation. I'd say that basically, you're ****ed.

As for the American 'gun lobby', whatever that might be, I think you'd find that most Americans, let alone those whose interest lies in shooting sports, are of the opinion that Braveheart was the real name of Mel Gibson, and that all of Scotland looks like the various whiskey/whisky adverts, and that everybody wears a kilt, even down the whiskey/whisky mines. The very least of their worries are the foibles of a bunch of loons three thousand miles away and their rather odd take on airguns.

tac
Life Member of the real NRA

[RichardH]

The clever thing to do might well be to put your current rifle on FAC now assuming you have a cabinet and land to shoot on.

Then you can up the power whenever you like, add a proper rifle at a later date and so on.

An airgun doesn't have to be over 12 to be on an FAC it can be done now and uprated later (or even never)

In fact if you want to apply for an FAC later for powder burners anyway then doing it now might be a good idea once you have the certificate extra guns are easy to add on and you'll avoid all the chaos of watching the police trying to implement a mess of an airgun licence.

A huge proportion of those who put their Brococks on FAC went on to acquire bigger and better guns as a direct consequence of the last effort, it would be great for shooting as a whole if the same happened again

[RobF]

An airgun doesn't have to be over 12 to be on an FAC it can be done now and uprated later (or even never)

Can you name the regions that allow that Richard? Mine will not. It might help if i can provide a reference.

[gingernut]

Good post Tacfoley.

You might add that if the Scots want to licence the possession of automatic weapons or indeed make the owning of firearms licence free there is absolutely sod all we can do about it.

You cannot assume that a predictable left wing government will always be in power north of the border can you?

[tacfoley]

Good post Tacfoley.

You might add that if the Scots want to licence the possession of automatic weapons or indeed make the owning of firearms licence free there is absolutely sod all we can do about it.

You cannot assume that a predictable left wing government will always be in power north of the border can you?

True thing.

However, both of your scenaria are about as likely as Ms Sturgeon becoming the next pope. In any case, the licensing - in general rather than that of arms dealers and distributors - of fully automatic FIREARMS is forbidden within the EU. Your scenario would therefore only have a possibility of becoming a reality if Scotland were to leave the EU.

tac

[gingernut]

If we are both spared I suggest we review the situation in 21 years time.
That's the length of time between The War to End All Wars and Hitlers little jaunt.

[RichardH]

Good post Tacfoley.

You might add that if the Scots want to licence the possession of automatic weapons or indeed make the owning of firearms licence free there is absolutely sod all we can do about it.

You cannot assume that a predictable left wing government will always be in power north of the border can you?

Good point, it would actually be the easiest region to restart pistol shooting

All we need is to start a party and win 50 seats Tac?

[RichardH]

Can you name the regions that allow that Richard? Mine will not. It might help if i can provide a reference.

Rob

Its dead easy apply for a S1 air rifle for vermin control.

Take that slot to an RFD who can sell you any airgun on it, to make a BSA Meteor S1 all that's necessary is to write it into the book.

Then its S1, you have a S1 slot job done.

Cam has a 12ft/ib S200 on FAC...

[Garvin]

Good post Tacfoley.

You might add that if the Scots want to licence the possession of automatic weapons or indeed make the owning of firearms licence free there is absolutely sod all we can do about it.

You cannot assume that a predictable left wing government will always be in power north of the border can you?

I think the devolution of firearms powers to Holyrood was specific to sub-12 ft/lbs airguns and not FAC-rated guns, air or powder burning, which are still in the ambit of Westminster. Or is this wrong?

[Garvin]

would a good QC be able to reverse or challenge the decision, or reform the rules?

I'm not sure who would spend several grand to find out!

I suspect that the legislation just passed in the Scottish parliament to licence low-powered airguns was drafted with a possible challenge in mind (as is all legislation) and that it may realistically be beyond challenge - or so expensive to challenge that it's never going to happen.

As far as I know, the BASC did quite a bit more than just send emails, including briefing the (rather inept) opposition. The committee 'debates' on the legislation, which I watched as they happened, were so one-sided in favour of the anti-airgun SNP as to be largely meaningless. Even if the BASC had spent millions on professional lobbyists (not that their in-house lobbyists are un-professional) they would have had little more impact on the equation.

The combination of a few highly motivated politicians and bad timing that saw the SNP riding very high in the polls, meant nobody could stop the airgun licensing train, unfortunately.

If momentum like this builds south of the border one day (ie. after an English Andrew Morton-type murder), we'd better anticipate it and act at a much earlier stage, before it becomes unstoppable.

[Hemmers]

Good post Tacfoley.

You might add that if the Scots want to licence the possession of automatic weapons or indeed make the owning of firearms licence free there is absolutely sod all we can do about it.

The Scottish Government have no authority in such matters.

The Scotland Act 2012 devolved to them the power to regulate air weapons.

They have no authority to legislate on other firearms or interfere with the FAC/SGC system and pricing structure.

I think the devolution of firearms powers to Holyrood was specific to sub-12 ft/lbs airguns and not FAC-rated guns, air or powder burning, which are still in the ambit of Westminster. Or is this wrong?

No, you're perfectly correct.


I think ideas of moving to S.1 is premature given that Air > Section 1 is a one-way street. We don't know what form the Air Gun License will take. Once an air gun is section 1 it is always section 1, crippling it's resale value due to the (current) limited market for such firearms - so it depends whether you ever think you'll want to change it.

It may end up that airguns held under a Scottish Airgun Licence can be sold normally as airguns south of the border (even if they have to via an RFD to get it off your airgun license or something).

If you jump the gun and declare your airguns section 1 now though, you're stuck with them like that - you almost certainly won't be able to sell them to an Airgun License Holder - whereas you might be able to freely trade them if you hold them under an Airgun License.

[gingernut]

Well Danny if you don't know I'm sure I don't and I am not going to research it unless I'm paid to!

The whole thing is a and as you say handed to the Scots as a political manoeuvre by Blairs Govenment to curry favour.

Which worked really well for them didn't it!

See 2015 Election results!

[gingernut]

So they have no authority in such matters - yet!

[GoodWILLHunting]

I think ideas of moving to S.1 is premature given that Air > Section 1 is a one-way street. We don't know what form the Air Gun License will take. Once an air gun is section 1 it is always section 1, crippling it's resale value due to the (current) limited market for such firearms - so it depends whether you ever think you'll want to change it.

It may end up that airguns held under a Scottish Airgun Licence can be sold normally as airguns south of the border (even if they have to via an RFD to get it off your airgun license or something).

If you jump the gun and declare your airguns section 1 now though, you're stuck with them like that - you almost certainly won't be able to sell them to an Airgun License Holder - whereas you might be able to freely trade them if you hold them under an Airgun License.

Good advice, thats about sums my take at the moment too.