Scottish Law and New Cert

[RichardH]

I think ideas of moving to S.1 is premature given that Air > Section 1 is a one-way street. We don't know what form the Air Gun License will take. Once an air gun is section 1 it is always section 1, crippling it's resale value due to the (current) limited market for such firearms - so it depends whether you ever think you'll want to change it.

It may end up that airguns held under a Scottish Airgun Licence can be sold normally as airguns south of the border (even if they have to via an RFD to get it off your airgun license or something).

If you jump the gun and declare your airguns section 1 now though, you're stuck with them like that - you almost certainly won't be able to sell them to an Airgun License Holder - whereas you might be able to freely trade them if you hold them under an Airgun License.

If you've a large collection or like to trade guns then you are absolutely right but for those that have good reason and land to shoot on the benefits of the extra power and ability to move up to a rimfire or something bigger easily have got to be worth looking at

You might at least gain something for all the hassle and paperwork you are going to have to do anyway.

[Robo]

Faintly interesting subject, but, alas, nothing to do with me, pal, or anybody else that doesn't live in the same country as you do. I live - if that's the right word to use - in England. It's YOUR government, not mine. After all, the majority of you voted for the SNP, I didn't. You are already a foreign country with your own laws on education, taxation, money-making, legal system and new firearms legislation. I'd say that basically, you're ****ed.

As for the American 'gun lobby', whatever that might be, I think you'd find that most Americans, let alone those whose interest lies in shooting sports, are of the opinion that Braveheart was the real name of Mel Gibson, and that all of Scotland looks like the various whiskey/whisky adverts, and that everybody wears a kilt, even down the whiskey/whisky mines. The very least of their worries are the foibles of a bunch of loons three thousand miles away and their rather odd take on airguns.

tac
Life Member of the real NRA

Hi Tac,

Politics? We had enough of that last year...seriously! Unfortunately for you, I think you are kidding your self, just as I have been. I thought the S. Government would listen to logical debate and pass a simple Air Riffle Register which effectively logs riffles to riffle owners. But alas, they are opting for a much more punitive regulatory system, pretty much the same as the FAC (without the gun cabinet at the moment). I'm afraid to say this will start to have something to do with you, or any air gun enthusiast in England and Wales. It's inevitable that Government will try to follow suite in the rest of the UK if this goes through in Scotland. UK policy continuity. It's too bureaucratic (and daft) to run two gun control regulatory systems. Also, as Scotland passes, it will snowball and give momentum to the anti air gun lobbying in England and Wales.

I very much hope I'm wrong for all of you down south, but these things have a habit of growing in momentum. It's a very enjoyable hobby of mine going out for a rough shoot/ stroll with the Air Riffle and shoot some Rabbits, Pigeons or plinking and not expensive. So it's a kick in the teeth.

R

[Gunfun]

[QUOTE=Robo;6757079
I very much hope I'm wrong for all of you down south, but these things have a habit of growing in momentum. It's a very enjoyable hobby of mine going out for a rough shoot/ stroll with the Air Riffle and shoot some Rabbits, Pigeons or plinking and not expensive. So it's a kick in the teeth.

R[/QUOTE]
I think you're right and it will come to England. I'm quiet happy with my air rifles now, but will go FAC if English licencing happens.
When I lived in the US I met many deer hunters. They got 'tags' each year to shoot 3 or 5 deer for about £30. They put about 200 lbs of venison in the freezer each year, wild meat with no growth hormones, steroids or preservitives in it. As well as BBQing the steaks, they made sausages, burgers and jerky from the meat, all of which tasted delicious. The money they saved on supermarket meat went on hunting trips. Have fun Robo !

[Black Beard]

To help avoid it coming to UK we should highlight as many incidents of bad implementation, bad prosecutions, overloaded police forces that we can. It is no good just complaining on here.

[sleeprunner]

The whole process is going to be nigh on impossible to implement and manage due to the volume of applications and police resources.

I have been shooting air rifles for years - I am a member of a small bore club shooting indoors and have a seven gun cabinet etc so for me it was an easy upgrade to FAC and now have slots for 22lr bolt action, 22lr Semi auto and an FAC .22 air rifle - all for target shooting. I will still keep and shoot my sub 12 rifles as well. What I will need to do next year come the implementation is yet to be known but as far as I know my FAC will cover me for all the sub 12,s until it's time to renew - by that time I may be living in England anyway - that's our plan - nothing to do with shooting - just the crap weather up here lol

On another note my wife is a serving police officer of 23 years and in all her time in the job has never had to deal with an airgun incident - says it all really.

In talking to a few FEO's they all say there workload has increased due to the volume of FAC applicants and they also acknowledge - off the record of course - that the new airgun scheme up here will be problematic and nigh on impossible for the police to manage.

The whole thing is a mess and totally unnessary and all down to the SNP and that imbecile of a Justice secretary who has now gone but his legacy remains.

I despise the SNP for what they have done to this country and will never live in an independent Scotland

Rant over!!

[pneucomer]

\\\hi sleeprunner
You seem to have lost the reason to dislike the snp, its the people of this land that make the snp what they are today. I too want to leave this mad people and live in a better land.
Atb

[Robo]

If you've a large collection or like to trade guns then you are absolutely right but for those that have good reason and land to shoot on the benefits of the extra power and ability to move up to a rimfire or something bigger easily have got to be worth looking at

You might at least gain something for all the hassle and paperwork you are going to have to do anyway.

Hi Richard,

Exactly - that is my logic. There is no point in going through all the admin hassle to get the Air Riffle Cert, which is still restricted to 12ft-lbs when one can get the FAC for marginally extra admin. What on earth were they thinking!

Gunfun - you are bang on. All this really means is; I need to do a little admin, invest in a chest freezer and a new Webber BBQ...and let the meat roll in!

Made me think, has anyone on the forum watched the Alaskan TV show: "Alaska, the last frontier"? It's very addictive - nice bunch of people - the pics at the link below makes them look like rednecks but they are the opposite and real farmers. Shows all the positives of being a homesteader in Alaska. It's a hard life but looks epic if you don't mind weather. Allot of hunting and meat prep. The "dark days" look hard, but to be honest, I'd swap our schizophrenic winters for some real cold weather.

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/al...last-frontier/

[tacfoley]

Good point, it would actually be the easiest region to restart pistol shooting

All we need is to start a party and win 50 seats Tac?

With the appalling horror of Dunblane to look back on, IMO Scotland is probably the least likely place on the planet to 'restart' pistol shooting. The massacre, carried out by a Scot person in Scotland with handguns held by permission of a Scottish police authority, has real resonance even now.

tac

[tacfoley]

To help avoid it coming to UK we should highlight as many incidents of bad implementation, bad prosecutions, overloaded police forces that we can. It is no good just complaining on here.

Ignoring the possibly impending Scottish airgun problem/legislation, Wales and England still have the 6/12 ft lb law. Norn Iron follows the rest of the island of Ireland in needing a FAC for ANY air gun over 1 Joule.

Scotland, BTW, is STILL part of the UK - the Independence Referendum decided that.

tac

[Robo]

Ignoring the possibly impending Scottish airgun problem/legislation, Wales and England still have the 6/12 ft lb law. Norn Iron follows the rest of the island of Ireland in needing a FAC for ANY air gun over 1 Joule.

Scotland, BTW, is STILL part of the UK - the Independence Referendum decided that.

tac

Hi Tac,

You can ignore the legislation in Scotland, but respectfully I don't think you should...if you like the current legislation. If Air Riffle enthusiasts in England and Wales want to preserve the current regulatory regime, you should not ignore this or allow yourselves to sleep walk into new legislation. I'm assuming the majority would care. It's an incremental step that will undermine the legislation in England and Wales.

To be completely honest - I think the Air Riffle Industry has to take a big part of the blame. They have increasingly over the last 20 or so years adopted military design for marketing Air Riffles. If you look in any Air Riffle Mag these days, or on the net, there are plenty examples of what I'm talking about. It does not matter that most are under the 12 ft-lbs limit. To most people, these things look like automatic assault riffles...because they are meant to. So I'm not too surprised this has now happened in Scotland, and I know a few people in the Gun trade at the sales end that agree the design and marketing is partly to blame.

Might seem like a small thing, but I would think that BASC should be encouraging the manufactures to seriously tone down the military design. What on earth does black special Ops with beaver rails do for someone wanting to plink in the garden or go shoot some rabbits/Pigeons?

Google Black Ops Tactical Sniper Rifle .177. What on earth is the point of that? It's daft, dangerous, and does not even try and hide the fact that the industry is weaponising what is in fact a .177 break barrel air riffle.

It's bad practice and is scaring the public and thus legislators. Not exactly helping our hobby.

R

[Black Beard]

Do you think there is a market for a Scottish spring kit. Just pull the existing spring then insert new spring and guide. 180fps all the way to the target.

And/or glue a tiny transfer port restrictor in to the action.

They make the rules, we'll work around them!

[Craig Ross]

Google Black Ops Tactical Sniper Rifle .177. What on earth is the point of that? It's daft, dangerous, and does not even try and hide the fact that the industry is weaponising what is in fact a .177 break barrel air riffle.

It's bad practice and is scaring the public and thus legislators. Not exactly helping our hobby.

R[/QUOTE]

That Black Ops thing is mental! If someone called the cops that's exactly what might get you shot.

[bighit]

Can you name the regions that allow that Richard? Mine will not. It might help if i can provide a reference.

The old Grampian force told me last week that I could not add a sub12ftlbs to my ticket. I queried it so I could get it done before the rush next year.

[Robo]

The old Grampian force told me last week that I could not add a sub12ftlbs to my ticket. I queried it so I could get it done before the rush next year.

Hi Bighit,

OK, so they have not finalised the rules and regulations so the position will change, so please don't take any of this as fact or advise, I am only passing on what I understand the rules to be at the moment and I could have interpreted it incorrectly...obviously this is serious stuff.

As I understand it at this point, you don't need to put a sub 12 ft lbs on your FAC. Because you have an FAC (also applies to Shot Gun Cert so I'm using FAC for both), you don't need the Air Cert...yet.

To clarify, you don't need to get a sub 12 ft lbs added to your FAC. Your FAC will cover you until your present FAC expires. Assuming you renew your FAC, then at renewal you would put a sub 12 lbs onto the new Air "Weapon" Certificate. I expect this means you have to pay for two certs, but they have not set a fee yet for the Air Cert.

What you can do, is increase the power of your riffle to FAC. Even if you get it increased to 13 ft lbs say, to keep the characteristics like cheap ammo, shot count, you can then put it on your FAC now. You would then NOT require the Air Riffle Certificate as your Air Riffle is S1 FAC and is no longer classified as: Air weapons of a type not declared specially dangerous (i.e. those falling below 6ft/lbs for a Air Gun or 12 ft/lbs for an Air rifle.
http://www.scotland.police.uk/about-...rges/firearms/

However, because you have your FAC, you can deliberately delay (that may change, so keep it under consideration) for the time left on your present FAC, then you can make a decision closer to that time. For me (no FAC at the moment) I intend to apply for an FAC and purchase a .22 rim fire for rabbits etc. I won't bother getting the power increased on Air Riffle at this point as there is no need yet, and it would confuse matters. Then, once I get the FAC I will buy the .22 or get my HW100 increased to around 14.

Few chaps on here said you should be careful about powering up the Air Riffle as you cannot undo that. Not a big issue in my opinion as the Scottish regulations will increase demand for FAC air riffles. I expect there will be a few sub 12 ft lbs on the market for those south of the border.

BASC Scotland tried to get FAC/Shotgun exemption. If they make us get two certificates, it makes sub 12 ft lbs a bit redundant in Scotland, although I don't do target shooting so maybe you have to have sub 12 for field target. For those only doing plinking, you will struggle to get an Air cert at this point. Seems to be a key part of the legislation, "back yard" target shooting is not seen as a valid reason (you have to join a formal club). But maybe this will evolve. Any one in England coming up for a trip will need a permit.

Note, I spoke with my mate at the gun shop and he mentioned that allot of officers that deal with fire arms and FAC visits etc have been moved on or retired since Police Scotland changed the way things were managed. So could be a backlog in time frames, as you suggest.

Hope this helps, but it's all up in the air just now so keep in contact with your fire arms dealer as your first point of call. See the BASC stuff below.

Actually, does anyone know why Weihrauch set their FAC HW100 to 25 ft/lbs? (35 J). Is this the optimum before you loose accuracy? Cheers!

http://basc.org.uk/basc-scotland/air...ked-questions/

[RichardH]

The old Grampian force told me last week that I could not add a sub12ftlbs to my ticket. I queried it so I could get it done before the rush next year.

None of their concern, you are asking to acquire 1x Section 1 air rifle

Any RFD can sign an air rifle of any power level onto that slot just as I would if you were going to uprate it yourself.