Shotgun Brass from Rifle-Brass and primers....

[S_Bluck]

Hi All.
first of all Hello, I am new to this forum. I am a keen shooter and reload 12ga shotgun ammo
and also make my own .410 brass cases from rifle brass by fire-forming. I have recently sent an e-mail
to my firearms liason chap in Maidstone Kent asking him how the VCR-Acts etc.. effect the availability
of primers to me..

The act seems to require a rifle/pistol other than a rimfire or shotgun to be able to purchace primers
for metallic cases. Shotgun primers seem to be exempt from this requirement.

It seems to be an offence to attempt to buy the primers.

As I use various rifle brass for my .410 I tend to use pistol primers and it seems I will not be able to
get any more once I run out. Anyone else come across this or had a problem with it.

Cheers....

[223AI]

I believe, and this is only from memory of a similar thread, you shoud be able to buy appropriate primers when you produce your SGC as the VCR just requires a suitable calibre for the primers you are purchasing, shotgun classed as such.

But this is just what I have read and you'd be best checking with your FEO etc.

[zanes]

I believe, and this is only from memory of a similar thread, you shoud be able to buy appropriate primers when you produce your SGC as the VCR just requires a suitable calibre for the primers you are purchasing, shotgun classed as such.

But this is just what I have read and you'd be best checking with your FEO etc.

That was what my memory told me- not a million miles away from the situation whereby some calibres (7.62x39 for instance IIRC) can use different primer types depending on manufacturer.

[DesG]

This is the guidance issued by the home office. Basically it says you can't but primers without due reason, but you can buy shotgun primers and caps for muzzle loaders. If you need them for loading a legally held shotgun then you have due reason.

5.16 The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 introduced controls on the purchase and sale of
cap-type primers designed for use in metallic ammunition for a firearm, including empty
cartridge cases incorporating such a primer. Section 35 of the 2006 Act makes it an
offence to sell these items unless the purchaser:
a) is a registered dealer;
b) sells by way of any trade or business either primers or empty cartridge cases
incorporating primers;
c) produces a certificate (i.e. the original, not a photocopy) authorising them to possess a
firearm of a relevant kind (i.e. a firearm other than a shotgun, an air weapon or a firearm
chambered for rim-fire ammunition) or ammunition for such a firearm;
d) is a duly authorised Crown servant;
e) shows that they are entitled in law to possess a firearm or ammunition of a relevant kind
without a certificate;
f) produces a certificate (the original, not a photocopy) authorising another person to
possess such a firearm, or such ammunition, together with that other person’s authority
to purchase primers on their behalf; or
g) shows that they are authorised by regulations to purchase primers. To date no such
regulations have been made.
Section 35 also makes it an offence to buy, or attempt to buy, primers unless the
purchaser meets the same criteria.
The definitions used in section 35 mean that the offences do not apply to the purchase or
sale of blank ammunition, shotgun primers or to percussion caps for muzzle-loading firearms.

The dealer is required to satisfy himself that you are a person entitled to the primers. They do not need to entered onto your certificate as do live rounds.

[25Pdr]

My Dealer said It is not against the Law to give Primers away.

He can give you Primers free and charge you say, £35 or so for car parking etc.

[S_Bluck]

This is the guidance issued by the home office. Basically it says you can't but primers without due reason, but you can buy shotgun primers and caps for muzzle loaders. If you need them for loading a legally held shotgun then you have due reason.

5.16 The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 introduced controls on the purchase and sale of
cap-type primers designed for use in metallic ammunition for a firearm, including empty
cartridge cases incorporating such a primer. Section 35 of the 2006 Act makes it an
offence to sell these items unless the purchaser:
a) is a registered dealer;
b) sells by way of any trade or business either primers or empty cartridge cases
incorporating primers;
c) produces a certificate (i.e. the original, not a photocopy) authorising them to possess a
firearm of a relevant kind (i.e. a firearm other than a shotgun, an air weapon or a firearm
chambered for rim-fire ammunition) or ammunition for such a firearm;
d) is a duly authorised Crown servant;
e) shows that they are entitled in law to possess a firearm or ammunition of a relevant kind
without a certificate;
f) produces a certificate (the original, not a photocopy) authorising another person to
possess such a firearm, or such ammunition, together with that other person’s authority
to purchase primers on their behalf; or
g) shows that they are authorised by regulations to purchase primers. To date no such
regulations have been made.
Section 35 also makes it an offence to buy, or attempt to buy, primers unless the
purchaser meets the same criteria.
The definitions used in section 35 mean that the offences do not apply to the purchase or
sale of blank ammunition, shotgun primers or to percussion caps for muzzle-loading firearms.

The dealer is required to satisfy himself that you are a person entitled to the primers. They do not need to entered onto your certificate as do live rounds.

Hi DesG....
Yes, this is the section that concerns me.

a and b do not apply as I am not a dealer / seller.

c, I have rimfires and shotguns. but this does not allow me to buy primers for normal
rifle / pistol brass.

d through to g do not apply to me.

So if I pop into my local shop and ask for primers for my fire-formed brass .410 am I
commiting a crime, as Section 35 also makes it an offence to buy, or attempt to buy primers

[zanes]

My Dealer said It is not against the Law to give Primers away.

He can give you Primers free and charge you say, £35 or so for car parking etc.

I suspect that would go down well with his licensing authority.

[S_Bluck]

That was what my memory told me- not a million miles away from the situation whereby some calibres (7.62x39 for instance IIRC) can use different primer types depending on manufacturer.

The act aso now says ( as of the 2014 Home-Office guidance notes) that a shotgun cert or a
FA cert for rimfires does not allow someone to buy primers for metallic cartridges. Only shotgun
primers. and old percussion cap-type primers.

[nattyjack]

Its an interesting problem, having looked on the BARSC site, they claim to have lobbied to keep shotgun primers separate . I think it will need careful discussion with the licencing officer.
Currently possession of a limited amount of gifted shotgun ammo is legal off ticket, is this the same for primers? How does that leave people who have display primed ammo (no propellant)?
This seems like another piece of sneaked in legislation, like the new air gun rules in scotland.
Natty

[S_Bluck]

that's an interesting question... I know display boards of shotgun ammo are exempt from licencing. Even if the
cartridges are live. but empty (powderless but still with bullet and primer) brass ammo. It used to be the case
that this was exempt. I have a collection of brass. .303 mainly some dating back to well before WW2. and also
so odd items from the manufacturers in the south-east during WW2. I would hate to have to give these up...
maybe another question for my police FA liason chap when he gets back to me about the primers-situation....

[S_Bluck]

..... just off the 'phone with my local firearms officer we have been swapping e-mails for the last
couple of days. But he decided to call and clarify things...

He agrees that there may be an issue and that pistol / rifle primers won't be available for those
of us with shotguns and rimfires, ALSO he said I may have to apply for a centrfire class
firearm to be able to buy the pistol/rifle primers.... I told him I already have permission to have
centrefire rifle from one of the land-owners where I shoot but can't currently see the point of
having another rifle here, especially one I won't be using very often as it's really just here to
allow me to buy the primers I need for my shotgun brass.

He has now taken this up with his boss, and I will keep you all informed.

----
On another note. I asked him where I stand with my collection of brass... I have between 100
and 200 items. loads of .303 and many others too. dating from the inter-war period onwards.
Many of them are primed and have their heads in but filling has been removed making them not
complete rounds of ammunition, But still primed-cases. He suggests I have a collectors clause
added to cover these. That shouldn't be too much of a problem as I have a few antique and
obsolete-calibre arms here too.... (he said we'd sort this one out after he's dealt with the
primers issue...).

[nattyjack]

we wait with interest......

[weebeestie]

Brass .410 cases with shotgun primers is what you need.
Stops all that faffing about with FAC rifle primers.
Try these ones, a bit expensive but they work a treat.

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/index.htm

Dont know what its like to get them over here now but if interested give me a shout. I have some unused ones.

[S_Bluck]

Holy Cow......
yes, Thanks for the link. they are great products. But you're right, Not cheap!
and they even make a cartridge for the 12/14 greener police gun! Pity i have
just sold mine. Although mine was re-chambered for 12ga. it would still chamber
an original brass case but I never tried my collection/display one in it!

And I already have a couple of hundred brass cases here... in both 12ga and .410
It would be a pity not to use them

You say you have some.. In 12g or .410? what wads do they use? Felt? £?