Calling all air rifle experts

[ccdjg]

Danny has recently posted a very interesting Burgo (Burgsmüller) catalogue for 1952/53 on the Vintage Airgun Gallery which lists an extensive range of German air rifles and pistols that were in production at that time. http://www.network54.com/Forum/68145...alogue+1952-53
The catalogue includes fine drawings of some 20 rifles and 4 pistols, each with full details of size and weight, calibres, and whether or not they were available rifled or smoothbore. It is probably the best single record I have come across of the German airgun scene of the early 1950’s and is a must reference work for any serious collector.

The only drawback is that Herr Burgsmüller had an aversion to revealing the manufacturer of the guns he distributed, and so all are identified only by a Burgo catalogue number. Possibly this was why drawings were used rather than photographs so that any manufacturer’s markings could be easily omitted. This seems to have been the case with one of the pistols, and the BSF S20 for example, which usually had an identifying medallion on the stock, is depicted with a plain stock.

So it would be great if the experts on here could identify these guns and so making the catalogue even more useful for the rest of us.

I am no expert on air rifles and would welcome such input. I can make a start on the air pistols though, and the ones illustrated on page 20 of the catalogue are as follows:

Model P/A.II The Koma LDP4, which went on to be called the Voere LDP4 around 1955. One of the worst air pistol designs ever IMO.

Model P/ A.5 JGA (Anschutz) air pistol, which became known as the JGA 100 after 1960.

Model P.6/A Jung Roland air pistol. A very rarely catalogued pistol in my experience.

Model P.6/B BSF S20, basic model

So, calling all air rifle experts, can you name the name the remaining 20 guns?

And of course, very many thanks to Danny for making this invaluable resource available to us all!

[Josie & John]

Hi John,

A friend at the Bisley vintage section has a Burgo marked rifle, which I originally thought was an M&G 'Original' but Danny didn't think so. I'm no expert on either Burgo or Originals but have attached some pics of my friend's rifle if they are of interest. The light was fading fast, so apologies for the quality.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uf4p92rao...HTDB5Ynpa?dl=0

John

[aimless]

I can add the following informations (not personally proofed ):

The Burgo 404 is a Weihrauch HW 50V

The Bugo “Schützenbruder” is a HW 50

The Burgo “Meisterschütze “ is a HW 35

The Burgo "Jungschütze" is probably a HW 35 without dovetail (???)

AFAIK there might be Burgos, which werde produced by BSF (Bayerische Sportwaffenfabrik)

[kevin.ronnie]

Hello , the 410/D looks very much like a Wagria aero sport ? .

Rgds kev

[Geezer]

Not an expert, but:

The 4/a and 4/b look very like the M&G Diana LG15/16.

The 4/c is I think an M&G Diana LG23.

The 50/II and the 404s look BSF-like to me, especially those grooves at the front of the cylinder and the shape of the rear sight. Although the stock in the drawing looks more like an HW one.

[Garvin]

Thanks for posting this query John and for identifying the pistols, which I'll add to the catalogue thread.

I'm not sure either which models Burgo sold as its own, apart from the smallest and largest models, which are more distinctive. I can't see any Dianas in there apart from the smaller guns (16, 23). I think BSFs are there too.

I wonder if some of the smaller rifles are Haenels, somehow brought across the wall-less border and resold in the West? There would have been plenty of profit to be made there.

The Burgo pics of which John M has posted doesn't seem quite to match any of the illustrations in this catalogue, as far as I can see.

I think the Weihrauchs are as follows, with the identification made partly by looking at the illustrations in the AKAH catalogues I've just posted here. Something I realised when you pointed out that these were drawings was that the artist has clearly made some errors and was probably working from photos. His portrayal of what look like HW35s lack the stock cut-out for the barrel lock lever, although the (rather small) lock lever is present. I don't think he had a clue what it was. The HW35 rearsights are done badly too.



HW35

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps2lcgoazb.jpg


HW35 Luxus

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psxn6vb115.jpg




HW55M Meisterstutzen

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psnrioslmj.jpg




HW55S Sportstutzen

HW50S Sportmodell

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps3ph16ftu.jpg



Edit: Interestingly, this catalogue lists makes, models and prices also sold by Burgo but marked under their own brand. Maybe that provides a clue as to which rifles Burgo was bringing in, although clearly a lot of them are missing from the Burgo line up:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psxnmrhqqn.jpg

[frakor]

Thanks for posting this query John and for identifying the pistols, which I'll add to the catalogue thread.

I'm not sure either which models Burgo sold as its own, apart from the smallest and largest models, which are more distinctive. I can't see any Dianas in there apart from the smaller guns (16, 23). I think BSFs are there too.

I wonder if some of the smaller rifles are Haenels, somehow brought across the wall-less border and resold in the West? There would have been plenty of profit to be made there.

The Burgo pics of which John M has posted doesn't seem quite to match any of the illustrations in this catalogue, as far as I can see.

I think the Weihrauch's are as follows, with the identification made partly by looking at the illustrations in the AKAH catalogues I've just posted here. Something I realised when you pointed out that these were drawings was that the artist has clearly made some errors and was probably working from photos. His portrayal of what look like HW35s lack the stock cut-out for the barrel lock lever, although the (rather small) lock lever is present. I don't think he had a clue what it was. The HW35 rearsights are done badly too.



HW35

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps2lcgoazb.jpg


HW35 Luxus

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psxn6vb115.jpg




HW55M Meisterstutzen

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psnrioslmj.jpg




HW55S Sportstutzen

HW50S Sportmodell

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps3ph16ftu.jpg



Edit: Interestingly, this catalogue lists makes, models and prices also sold by Burgo but marked under their own brand. Maybe that provides a clue as to which rifles Burgo was bringing in, although clearly a lot of them are missing from the Burgo line up:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psxnmrhqqn.jpg

Danny, I think he knew exactly what he was drawing as it is clearly a Wagria M57 with a slightly different stock (HW35 lookalike).




The Wagria M58(Aerosport) is another one.




------------------------------
Frank

[Garvin]

Danny, I think he knew exactly what he was drawing as it is clearly a Wagria M57 with a slightly different stock (HW35 lookalike).




The Wagria M58(Aerosport) is another one.




------------------------------
Frank

I think you're right, Frank! That explains it. Kevin spotted the Wagria connection too.

I'll have to apologise to the artist's descendants for accusing him, even if he did miss the small barrel lock lever cut-out on the Wagria HW35 look-alike's stock.

[ccdjg]

Edit: Interestingly, this catalogue lists makes, models and prices also sold by Burgo but marked under their own brand. Maybe that provides a clue as to which rifles Burgo was bringing in, although clearly a lot of them are missing from the Burgo line up:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...psxnmrhqqn.jpg

Here is a translation of the header to this table:

"In addition to our first class, excellent performing “Burgo” brand airguns we also provide on request brands produced in the Federal territory, with a selling price (retail price) as laid down by the individual factories, listed alphabetically as follows: "

[Garvin]

Here is a translation of the header to this table:

"In addition to our first class, excellent performing “Burgo” brand airguns we also provide on request brands produced in the Federal territory, with a selling price (retail price) as laid down by the individual factories, listed alphabetically as follows: "

Thanks, John. Presumably the Burgo-marked equivalents were a bit cheaper then?

[ccdjg]

Presumably the Burgo-marked equivalents were a bit cheaper then?

It is very difficult say from the catalogue data if any two rifles are really identical and so without actually having them in your hands to inspect, price comparisons are not easy to make. Subtle variations in sights, chequering etc. can easily enable Burgo to claim their own dedicated models and so set their own prices. It's a bit like trying to price compare TV's or washing machines sold by Argos and John Lewis - they rarely seem to have exactly the same code number or specificafions.

[Garvin]

It is very difficult say from the catalogue data if any two rifles are really identical and so without actually having them in your hands to inspect, price comparisons are not easy to make. Subtle variations in sights, chequering etc. can easily enable Burgo to claim their own dedicated models and so set their own prices. It's a bit like trying to price compare TV's or washing machines sold by Argos and John Lewis - they rarely seem to have exactly the same code number or specificafions.

Those of us who collect early Weihrauchs can find no significant differences in spec or quality of finish etc between the Burgo-branded guns and their Weihrauch-branded equivalents. Some of us thought we detected slight economies in the Burgo rifles, but enough have turned up since to suggest this might not be true (although it is possible some internal parts were 'seconds').

I've entered them as interchangeable in this gallery.

See e.g. Frank's (Frakor) comments on this thread:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/405945/thread/1220571533

It would be interesting to see a Burgo price list...

[Garvin]

For those who are interested in this era, I have now posted scans from catalogues of Fern Kauf Nord, another distributor that unfortunately renamed the guns it sold...

So now you can see airguns on sale in Germany by three large retailers, Fern Kauf Nord, Burgsmüller (Burgo), and AKAH.

By the way, I'm almost certain the artist got the drawing of an HW35 wrong here, by omitting the stock's breach lock lever cut-out...

[Josie & John]

For those who are interested in this era, I have now posted scans from catalogues of Fern Kauf Nord, another distributor that unfortunately renamed the guns it sold...

So now you can see airguns on sale in Germany by three large retailers, Fern Kauf Nord, Burgsmüller (Burgo), and AKAH.

By the way, I'm almost certain the artist got the drawing of an HW35 wrong here, by omitting the stock's breach lock lever cut-out...

Thanks Danny.

Can anyone precisely date these catalogues? I note they include flat headed pellets and am interesting as to when the flat headed pellet was first made? 1950s has been suggested in the past but I'd like to narrow it down more precisely and perhaps identify who first produced the flat headed diabolo pellet.

John

[Garvin]

Thanks Danny.

Can anyone precisely date these catalogues? I note they include flat headed pellets and am interesting as to when the flat headed pellet was first made? 1950s has been suggested in the past but I'd like to narrow it down more precisely and perhaps identify who first produced the flat headed diabolo pellet.

John

Hi John

Unfortunately there is no date printed on either catalogue, unless I'm missing it. I estimated a rather vague "mid-late 1950s" because most of the guns I'm familiar with were definitely on the market by then.

My best guess is 1959, for two reasons.

One is that the edition with Weihrauchs in it appears to include the HW35E, which we know was in circulation by 1959 from this brochure, courtesy of Mike D.

The second reason is that the two editions pictured seem to date from the same year, and share the same cover photo. But one brochure features Falke airguns and the other does not. We know that Falke stopped producing guns in 1959 after its MD and founder had a heart attack. This could be the reason the Falke range were abruptly pulled from the catalogue and a deal done with the Weihrauch factory to fill the gap.

It's all supposition, but there it is! Maybe someone else has got a different date in mind? I'd be interested to hear any alternative theories.