Musketoon or blunderbuss Help

[offtarget]

A friend of mine has acquired this Blunderbuss.
While I was looking at it, another friend turned up and said he thinks its a Musketoon.
An argument started.
He’s thinking of selling it. So another argument started about the value.
I had never heard of a Musketoon, so I have no idea.
After an hour or so of Google I am still none the wiser.
So the font of BBS knowledge is required to stop two friends falling out.
Does anyone know what the difference is and any idea of its value.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/...lunderbuss.jpg

[acmsarh]

This perhaps. http://www.icollector.com/W-Bond-Bra...onet_i11027971

[offtarget]

This perhaps. http://www.icollector.com/W-Bond-Bra...onet_i11027971

Thanks for that.
Unfortunately this is what is adding to my confusion.
They call that a Blunderbuss but "SOME" of the info I found on line says that
only the Musketoon had a bayonet.

[tacfoley]

Thanks for that.
Unfortunately this is what is adding to my confusion.
They call that a Blunderbuss but "SOME" of the info I found on line says that
only the Musketoon had a bayonet.

The image in your first post is a blunderbuss, of that there is no doubt. It is fitted with what is called a snap-bayonet

The blunderbuss is a smoothbore shotgun.

The barrel on a Musketoon is STRAIGHT from one end to the other and is rifled and has fine sights fitted. A blunderbuss has no need of sights - it is a point-and-shoot weapon whose primary uses were offensive boarding of a ship, defensive protection of a ship, stagecoach guard protection against robbers or highwaymen.

Most brass blunderbusses are genuinely antique - come to that, I've never seen an iron [not steel] working replica blunderbuss. Your second link also shows such a blunderbuss - a genuine brass-barrelled and fitted Naval issue or purchase gun, again with a 'snap' bayonet.

The Musketoon, or Short rifle, is also usually rifled - the inside of the barrel has grooves in it, and made by Parker-Hale. AFAIK, nobody else has made a replica Musketoon except Navy Arms/Euro Arms in Italy using left-over Parker-Hale parts after the company sold out in the middle-90s. In the reality, the Musketoon was carried by artillery troops on horseback, Dragoons [light and heavy] and by foot sergeants of the line.

ALL musketoons were made to take the sword bayonet on the lug at the right-hand end of the barrel - set at three o'clock when viewed from the back - ie. you looking down the sights.

All Musketoons have a ram rod under the barrel - blunderbusses, usually do not, because of the trumpet-like shape of the muzzle.

Look at Muskteoon on Youtube - either by Hickock45 or by me, tac, on tac's guns musketoon and you'll see what it looks like.

Remember that if it is a replica - made by Parker-Hale or Euroarms/Navy Arms, it is a Section 1 firearm and you will need a FAC. Even the smoothbore version needs an Shotgun certificate. No GENUINE antique musketoon [around £1500-2000 or so] needs any kind of certificate, nor does a blunderbuss.

Or just look at THIS -

http://www.shootingandscuba.co.uk/st...-loading-rifle

Any more queries, come back to us.

tac

[tim56]

Love my musketoon. 60gns of the black stuff with a bloody great big bullet on top. Boom, 6 foot flame and enough noise to wake the dead. I even hit the target sometimes.

[offtarget]

Tac. Thank you for the info and taking the trouble to help.
The crap picture of mine doesn't show that the gun does have a ram rod and
also that the trigger fires a sprung loaded bayonet
I see that you have gently emphasized the fact that the barrel is straight on a musketoon
As I said in my first post that I did Google for a while for info.
My reason for my confusion is because of the following.

This is in the dreaded Wikipedia
“ Musketoon barrels were often flared at the muzzle, resembling a cannon or blunderbuss.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musketoon

Bonham's Action House was selling “A Flintlock Blunderbuss Or Musketoon”
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22749/lot/304/

From Museum of New Zealand
“ Percussion blunderbuss or ’musketoon’, with folding bayonet.”
http://collections.tepapa.govt.nz/object/50887

[tacfoley]

These days, those of us that actually shoot the things, rather than hang them over to fireplace as an ornament, have come to accept that the musketoon is a short rifle, and not a short shotgun.

The word itself is derived from the French word 'musqueton' which originally simply referred to ANY musket [English version] or 'Fusil' [hence the English word fusilier for rifleman], and has come into use in the English language as the word used to describe a shorter version of the long arm. Note that the term 'carbine' may also be applied to a shorter than normal version of the issue arm.

If you are in the market for buying such an arm purely as an ornament then you can call it Yankee Doodle, it matters nothing. Whatever the auction house calls it, for ME, if it ain't a cut-down long arm, then it ain't a musketoon. Blunderbusses have to be MADE as blunderbusses - there is no 'opening out' of the end of the muzzle of a cut-down arm to make it look like that.

This conversation about what constitutes a musketoon is really moot, as the generally-accepted desrption of a musketoon is a shrot version of the sevice arm, and a blunderbuss - English-mangled 'Donderbusche' [Dutch for 'thunder gun] is a gun made with a flared barrel, often of prodigious smooth-bore, designed as described above for short-range defence or attack.

We can shoot our musketoons up to the limits of the sights - 600 yards, since they shoot a ca.500gr Minié bullet from their rifled barrel. Meanwhile, if you got hit by a shot coming out of a blunderbuss at 50 yards, you must have been born with plastic spoon in your mouth, rather than a silver one.

tac

PS - be VERY careful what you quote from Wikipedia - remember that it is written by people who think that they know what they are talking about, but often do not.

[gtpkeeper]

Love my musketoon. 60gns of the black stuff with a bloody great big bullet on top. Boom, 6 foot flame and enough noise to wake the dead. I even hit the target sometimes.

tim,do you know what power they produce,ever chrono yours

[tacfoley]

tim,do you know what power they produce,ever chrono yours

Sir, your question is fraught with 'huh?. That is to say, what exactly do you mean by 'power'?

If you mean muzzle energy, then you must assume a number of variables, most important of which are the weight of the projectile and the average muzzle velocity. And I have chronographed my Musketoon, in the interests of interest.

I can't help you with Tim's average 60gr load, since I shoot mine with 65gr. The 535gr Minié bullets is making around 1090 fps, so, using a simple calculation, we arrive at 1409 ft lbs. So shooting it at live game is going to be a problem here in UK, always supposing that you can get nice and close up to insure good shot placement. Over on the other side they are used in close brush on whitetail and hogs, often with 100gr loads and 600gr+ solids instead of the hollow-base Minié. Here, I'm not sure of the legality of using such an arm on live game. That muzzle energy falls off rapidly past 100m or so, although there is no doubt that it would work, if you could reliably place your shots in a four inch circle repeatedly at that distance. I can't do that, and

a. I'm quite a good shot, but

b. Not that good, especially standing and shooting it.

Also, getting your FEO to OK one for live game shooting might be a problem, too. But then, that be's YOUR problem, not mine.

tac

[gtpkeeper]

cheers tac for the info.
the power - ft lbs and fps was what i am after cheeers

[tim56]

Sorry mate, no idea what power or fps i get. What i can say is 60grns with a 535 grn minie is nice to shoot and fairly accurate at 50m
where as 80grns of b/p with the same bullet is slightly more accurate, but at a cost depending how much punishment you can take.
Also not forgetting that individual guns may well perform better or worse with different loads. My mates 2 band doesn't like minies but
knocks the middle out with a patched round ball on top of 50grns b/p where as another mates 2 band prefers bullets with 50grn b/p.
All part of the fun. Big Bang, Big Flame, Loads of smoke and plenty of banter. Love it. Tim
ps, roll on sat. having a b/p day.

[gtpkeeper]

Cheers tim ,sounds like alot of fun,have a great day sat

[gtpkeeper]

Sir, your question is fraught with 'huh?. That is to say, what exactly do you mean by 'power'?

If you mean muzzle energy, then you must assume a number of variables, most important of which are the weight of the projectile and the average muzzle velocity. And I have chronographed my Musketoon, in the interests of interest.

I can't help you with Tim's average 60gr load, since I shoot mine with 65gr. The 535gr Minié bullets is making around 1090 fps, so, using a simple calculation, we arrive at 1409 ft lbs. So shooting it at live game is going to be a problem here in UK, always supposing that you can get nice and close up to insure good shot placement. Over on the other side they are used in close brush on whitetail and hogs, often with 100gr loads and 600gr+ solids instead of the hollow-base Minié. Here, I'm not sure of the legality of using such an arm on live game. That muzzle energy falls off rapidly past 100m or so, although there is no doubt that it would work, if you could reliably place your shots in a four inch circle repeatedly at that distance. I can't do that, and

a. I'm quite a good shot, but

b. Not that good, especially standing and shooting it.

Also, getting your FEO to OK one for live game shooting might be a problem, too. But then, that be's YOUR problem, not mine.

tac

too much for use on our range, muzzle energy 475 ft/lb
so may have to find another bp rifle

[tacfoley]

too much for use on our range, muzzle energy 475 ft/lb
so may have to find another bp rifle

As you say, that is going to be a real problem unless you are going to shoot patched round ball from something like a Hawken, Great Plains rifle or some kind of Kentucky long-rifle look-alike. A .45cal PRB -weighing around 145gr and downloaded to around 1200 fps, is still doing 464 ft lbs - that might do you.

Had you set your heart on a gun like that?

tac

[Turnup]

too much for use on our range, muzzle energy 475 ft/lb
so may have to find another bp rifle

Jumping in here, and I may be off base, but 475 ft-lb sounds like an indoor range?

You allowed to use BP there? Unless you have the ability to wash down the range, this is an explosion hazard.......