Roa

[Mac42]

25g of Swiss2 what size wad should I use. I don't want to use a filler to start my born again BP shooting. I will also use Grease to top off.

[Turnup]

25g of Swiss2 what size wad should I use. I don't want to use a filler to start my born again BP shooting. I will also use Grease to top off.

With 25gn of powder, why do you want a wad? IIRC it is possible to ram a ball into contact with that much powder, so no wad is really necessary.

For best accuracy then the ball should be seated just below the mouth of the chamber, but you will need a huge thickness of wad to achieve that.

What is the objection to a filler?

[Mac42]

With 25gn of powder, why do you want a wad? IIRC it is possible to ram a ball into contact with that much powder, so no wad is really necessary.

For best accuracy then the ball should be seated just below the mouth of the chamber, but you will need a huge thickness of wad to achieve that.

What is the objection to a filler?

Thanks for the reply
I could be accused of being very ignorant so I do apologise. A few years ago I owned a ROA and I have a strange feeling that I used 18g of Swiss 2 with a semolina filler but can't remember what amount of filler to use. Looking for the rule of thumb way to do it. 18g of BP + ? filler then ball just below mouth and topped of with grease. I read comments on this forum that people have used 25g + wad then ball. I understand there are lots of variations. I am looking for a starting point using 18g + BP + filler. I used phials for BP and phials for the filler All help fully appreciated.

[simgre]

For best accuracy then the ball should be seated just below the mouth of the chamber

No, thats a fallacy.

[tacfoley]

25g of Swiss2 what size wad should I use. I don't want to use a filler to start my born again BP shooting. I will also use Grease to top off.

25gr of Swiss is, ahem, quite lively.

I have to admit, however, that I shoot both 26gr of Pyrodex P or 26gr of 3Fg - no wad though. The last cylinder-load of the day I use E45 to soften up the crud, otherwise I don't use grease of any kind, either.

Reading the instructions for the use of a Colt revolving pistol on a Colt's label I find no mention of either grease or wads, but if you feel that topping up the chamber to bring the ball level with the mouth is a good idea, then go for it. It sure can't hurt, right?

To be honest, there are as many ways to achieve an accurate load as there are stars in the firmanent - choose what works for you. Having said that, though, 18gr - even of the powerful Swiss schtuff - is a pretty tame load for any .44cal revolver.

TomAHto, tomAYto.

tac

[tim56]

Don't you just love b/p revolvers.

[Turnup]

Thanks for the reply
I could be accused of being very ignorant so I do apologise. A few years ago I owned a ROA and I have a strange feeling that I used 18g of Swiss 2 with a semolina filler but can't remember what amount of filler to use. Looking for the rule of thumb way to do it. 18g of BP + ? filler then ball just below mouth and topped of with grease. I read comments on this forum that people have used 25g + wad then ball. I understand there are lots of variations. I am looking for a starting point using 18g + BP + filler. I used phials for BP and phials for the filler All help fully appreciated.

OK, accepting that chamber dimensions, BP densities and BP granulations might vary, I find 25gn BP then 11.8 gn Semolina is just about right. You might have to tweak a bit so suggest that you try 11.5 gn (a bit low won't matter very much and you can make a note to increase a bit next time, but a bit high is only discovered when you can't seat the ball far enough to clear the barrel, and it is a bit of a struggle to sort that out).

WRT semolina, I use Sainsbury's semolina - the Tesco stuff is much more powdery and I find it difficult to meter accurately.

For 18 gn BP then I use 16.9 gn Semolina. A general approximation is that for each gn of BP more then you need 0.7 gn less of semolina (and vice versa).

All with a .457 ball.

For Swiss #2 even 18 gn is quite a lot. It's not dangerous to fill a BP cylinder right up with BP, but:

1) Expensive
2) Probably less than best accuracy

but a very satisfying BOOM will be produced.

Make up some as low as 14 gn and see how that works. Part of the fun is the eternal search for the magic load. When using very light loads, some kind of filler is vital. Those who know advise that any airspace where the BP should be can lead to very high chamber pressures, so the filler ensures that the ball is firmly seated and holding the powder tightly together. That said, I have once, by accident, omitted the semolina, when meant that I could not ram the ball far enough to compress the BP. It was in a competition and I did not have time to correct it, so I just fired it anyway. Nothing bad happened that time but I would prefer not to be the person who demonstrates the bad consequences of an airspace.

[Turnup]

No, thats a fallacy.

Do share with us your advice for best accuracy in a BP revolver.

[Mac42]

OK, accepting that chamber dimensions, BP densities and BP granulations might vary, I find 25gn BP then 11.8 gn Semolina is just about right. You might have to tweak a bit so suggest that you try 11.5 gn (a bit low won't matter very much and you can make a note to increase a bit next time, but a bit high is only discovered when you can't seat the ball far enough to clear the barrel, and it is a bit of a struggle to sort that out).

WRT semolina, I use Sainsbury's semolina - the Tesco stuff is much more powdery and I find it difficult to meter accurately.

For 18 gn BP then I use 16.9 gn Semolina. A general approximation is that for each gn of BP more then you need 0.7 gn less of semolina (and vice versa).

All with a .457 ball.

For Swiss #2 even 18 gn is quite a lot. It's not dangerous to fill a BP cylinder right up with BP, but:

1) Expensive
2) Probably less than best accuracy

but a very satisfying BOOM will be produced.

Make up some as low as 14 gn and see how that works. Part of the fun is the eternal search for the magic load. When using very light loads, some kind of filler is vital. Those who know advise that any airspace where the BP should be can lead to very high chamber pressures, so the filler ensures that the ball is firmly seated and holding the powder tightly together. That said, I have once, by accident, omitted the semolina, when meant that I could not ram the ball far enough to compress the BP. It was in a competition and I did not have time to correct it, so I just fired it anyway. Nothing bad happened that time but I would prefer not to be the person who demonstrates the bad consequences of an airspace.

Many thanks for the information. Brings back memories of a few years ago. My question is what is the effect of not using a filler but say with a 25g load of Swiss 2 and then a 12g lubed Cushioned Wads. cuts out the hassle of using a filler. Are there any problems taking that road.

[tacfoley]

Many thanks for the information. Brings back memories of a few years ago. My question is what is the effect of not using a filler but say with a 25g load of Swiss 2 and then a 12g lubed Cushioned Wads. cuts out the hassle of using a filler. Are there any problems taking that road.

As I noted earlier - a 25gr load of Swiss is going to be pretty lively, or does that mean something else here? It's going to feel like around 30gr+ of ANYTHING else, for sure, if that means anything to you. One point - how are you going to get 25gr of Swiss AND a 12g wad [that's 3/4" diameter, in case you've overlooked that salient point] AND a ball in that chamber?

tac

[Turnup]

Many thanks for the information. Brings back memories of a few years ago. My question is what is the effect of not using a filler but say with a 25g load of Swiss 2 and then a 12g lubed Cushioned Wads. cuts out the hassle of using a filler. Are there any problems taking that road.

Assuming "12g" to mean "12 grains" rather than 12 gauge.....


It will probably work, but I don't see the point of the wad? Just an expensive indulgence IMO.

[tim56]

Each to their own but why pay for wads,? Iv always used semolina. Its cheep, it works and it smells nice when cooked by b/p.

[simgre]

Do share with us your advice for best accuracy in a BP revolver.

Quite simply, load as much powder as needed to get a slight compression when the ball is rammed on top of it. With most BP that will be around 24gns by volume. I use 30gns whether BP of Pyrodex. The maximum load of the ROA, with still enough room to seat a ball is 40gns.

Likewise, no grease is required on the front of the chamber as the ball should be of such a fit that small slither of lead should be shaved off when it's rammed home. Correct cap fit is what prevents chain fires and decent BP doesn't need to have the fouling kept soft for cleaning.

As for being as close to the chamber mouth as possible, why? That matters not as the ball itself will spend time in "free air" as it crosses the cylinder gap before entering the forcing cone of the barrel. It matters not where it was positioned in the chamber before hand. There is an argument that it should be seated as far back as possible so that the pressure continues to build as long as possible before there is gas leak via the cylinder gap. One of the most accurate combinations in the handgun world is a .38 148gn wad cutter, sat deep inside a 38 special case, fired from a .357 magnum cylinder!

This I discovered when learning how to shoot BP revolvers after losing cartridge pistols. A few years later a bloke next to me was struggling coming back to pistol shooting. He took advice on how to load his new ROA. He wasn't having much success and voiced he may as well sack it all. Then I found out his load....

Black powder, semolina, and some concoction of wax over the chamber mouth! Is it any wonder he couldn't hit anything close to what he did. Shooting all that crap up the barrel, Mercury fulminate gas and residue, bits of copper, BP gas, unburnt powder, residue, burning semolina, semolina gas and smoke, unburnt semolina, then a lead ball, all behind a big blob of slime!!! Well that's certainly the route to accuracy! Cap, powder, ball had him putting them all in the black. Simples.

How much semolina, grease and wads were used in 1859 on Wimbledon Common pre-NRA and Bisley?

[Turnup]

Quite simply, load as much powder as needed to get a slight compression when the ball is rammed on top of it. With most BP that will be around 24gns by volume. I use 30gns whether BP of Pyrodex. The maximum load of the ROA, with still enough room to seat a ball is 40gns.

Likewise, no grease is required on the front of the chamber as the ball should be of such a fit that small slither of lead should be shaved off when it's rammed home. Correct cap fit is what prevents chain fires and decent BP doesn't need to have the fouling kept soft for cleaning.

As for being as close to the chamber mouth as possible, why? That matters not as the ball itself will spend time in "free air" as it crosses the cylinder gap before entering the forcing cone of the barrel. It matters not where it was positioned in the chamber before hand. There is an argument that it should be seated as far back as possible so that the pressure continues to build as long as possible before there is gas leak via the cylinder gap. One of the most accurate combinations in the handgun world is a .38 148gn wad cutter, sat deep inside a 38 special case, fired from a .357 magnum cylinder!

This I discovered when learning how to shoot BP revolvers after losing cartridge pistols. A few years later a bloke next to me was struggling coming back to pistol shooting. He took advice on how to load his new ROA. He wasn't having much success and voiced he may as well sack it all. Then I found out his load....

Black powder, semolina, and some concoction of wax over the chamber mouth! Is it any wonder he couldn't hit anything close to what he did. Shooting all that crap up the barrel, Mercury fulminate gas and residue, bits of copper, BP gas, unburnt powder, residue, burning semolina, semolina gas and smoke, unburnt semolina, then a lead ball, all behind a big blob of slime!!! Well that's certainly the route to accuracy! Cap, powder, ball had him putting them all in the black. Simples.

How much semolina, grease and wads were used in 1859 on Wimbledon Common pre-NRA and Bisley?

Grease and wads and patches were certainly in use in the firearms of the day at Wimbledon - dunno about filler though - can't have been many revolvers in that era.

I have never shot at an international (not good enough), but I have officiated at one, and EVERY revolver shooter was using filler and some kind of lube. (Under MLAIC rules, use of an over-ball lube is in fact mandatory).

As explained to me, the theory in seating the ball as far forwards as possible is so that the ball enters the rifling at the lowest possible velocity (it hasn't time to accelerate very much). A ball has a much lower area of contact with the rifling than does a wadcutter bullet, and so there is consequently more likelihood of lead stripping.

If you want maximum velocity, then I concede that seating the ball further back might achieve this, but the accurate .38 spl load you mention would also use around 2.7 grains of Bullseye or similar (a very light charge) and achieve something in the region of 750 - 800 fps ....hardly maximum velocity for such a round. (BTW were you shooting wadcutters with no lube?) The same is true for accurate BP revolver shooting - all the international shooters use quite modest loads. (Completely the reverse for smoothbore guns, where stoke it up as far as you dare seems to be the order of the day)

I'm not saying that this doesn't work for you - part of the joy is there are many ways to achieve the same results. I'm simply stating that the very best UK and overseas BP revolver shooters use light loads, filler, and lube. Wads would not seem to be popular.

[tacfoley]

Grease and wads and patches were certainly in use in the firearms of the day at Wimbledon - dunno about filler though - can't have been many revolvers in that era.

The revolving pistol was popular from about 1836 onwards.

Solid frame revolvers, vice open-topped, were popular from the late 1850s - the Remington New Model Army dates from 1858. The Tranter and its ilk, here in UK, was popular not only as a paper cartridge loader, but was also one of the first British cartridge-firing revolvers.

Rifles of the early days of Wimbledon shooting would have been, initially, the service rifle of the day, and latterly, Volunteer pattern match rifles from Whitworth, Kerr, LaCo, Beasley, Metford and Gibbs [and others].

Military rifles would have used the issued loaded paper cartridges - no wads or patch and the only grease was on the rammed-down remainder of the cartridge - remember the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857? Volunteer rifles would have emulated the military rifles in all respects as far as loading the same bullet and weight of charge was concerned, else it would not have been possible for the various Volunteer units to have competed with their full-time counterparts.

The specifically-designed match rifles would undoubtedly have used individual loads comprising of pre-measured powder charges, a thin card wad [or two] and a bullet, often, but not always, paper-patched.

The American style of patched round ball shooting was unheard of at Wimbledon, due to the very short ranges at which they were accurate by compariuson with the English style of long-range shooting - out to 1000 yards or more. So-called 'chunk' guns - BP bench-rest of the day, was another American-only side of the sport, often using guns weighting between thirty and fifty pounds with two-piece bullets, false muzzles and mechanical bullet starters - all totally furrin' here in UK.

I did not know that handguns were fired in competition at Wimbledon - can you please point me at a source of information concerning that element of the shooting sport?

TIA

tac