To Restore or Not?

[zooma]

I have often been a little confused about when to restore a classic airgun and when to just to leave it as it is.

Some years ago I bought a Mk 1 Airsporter that had a 3 piece stock, it was complete and shot OK but had very little blue left on it and the stock had seen better days.

The decision to restore it was taken and the metal work was sent to Collin Malloy who polished it beautifully ( avoiding any factory markings) and then gave it a nice new blue finish.

The stock was stripped and I carefully steamed out any small "dings" and then built up a good walnut oiled finish and then gave it a clear Briwax finish to complete it.

The trigger bock was professionally re-coated black as like many Airsporters of its age it had lost its original black paint and been polished.

During reassembly the rifle was carefully lubed and a new spring (of the correct type) fitted and after everything was put back together again it now looks (arguably) better than it did when it left the factory as a new air rifle - mainly due to Collins superb workmanship with his polishing and bluing and the hand finished stock - both given more care than a production line rifle could expect to receive.

...and yet the rifle will not appeal to everyone as it is not in its original "aged" state.

If it was a classic motor car that was looking a bit shabby and had seen "better days" that was painstakingly restored to concourse condition then just about everyone would agree that this was a good project to do and it would be applauded by most - but a restored classic airgun does not seem to gain this same degree of appreciation.

For me the rifle is now a thing of beauty and it can be shot with confidence and enjoyed. It looks good, the woodwork is easy to maintain if it should ever get scratched and it is a joy to admire.

I paid £175 for the rifle when I bought it about 5 years ago and now after making the effort and spending a lot of time and cash on it some would argue it is worth even less!

I am left with the conclusion that the pleasure of seeing something brought back to superb condition can only be seen by the owner and the cost and time spent is lost forever.

[RobinC]

I agree with this restoration, if its tatty restore it, if its original but just showing patina from its age and use and a significant piece of history, then perhaps not, but hey its yours, your choice, do as you wish. Now its a thing of beauty, before it was just a scruffy old thing.

Where I think the line should be drawn is with pieces of specific historic interest, a rare example, or where the condition reflects its history, such as with Winston Churchills initials carved by penknife and you know its provenance!

I think restorers do have a responsibility to research and know what they are restoring.

As a long time target shooter it pains me when I see a target rifle with history that has been restored back to "as new", yet the restorer has no idea of its history, whose it was, what it did in its heyday.

Those who follow on here will know I'm desparate to find an Original 75, one of the first into the UK (if not the first), modded from standard to fit my wife, who shot it Internationaly (probably the only 75 to do so), we can find no trace of it even though its quite distinctive, we fear it has been restored back to as new, hope not, we hope it just has yet to emerge as it was a part of target air gun history.

I rescued a Walther GX1 stock just before the owner removed all the match stickers and refinished the stock, it was the late great Malcolm Coopers first 300 mt rifle, it set world records, won world championships, and still holds most of the Uk records. I've restored it with a replica action as it was stock only, but the stock is original and untouched, it gets shot and its promised to the Walther museum when we stop shooting.

I agree with restoring an old scruffy clonker, just be sure you know it does not have a hidden history!

Have Fun and good shooting
Robin

[gingernut]

I bought a fair condition LP53 from young Coburn on here.
Early ,brown grips, HW rearsight, no knob and worn barrel paint.
Fair price and he found the original broken rearsight.

Had it for a few months and gave it to Baz to fix the rearsight yesterday.
Mentioned the paint.

He returned it today with rearsight fixed and mounted and barrel repainted.


It looks great and shoots well.
I had a new knob off here when they were around.

So now I have a nice LP53 which has a bit of age to it as well.

I will always fix and restore rough collectables.

We did it with a Bonehill Brittania which now looks and shoots well with a polyurethane piston seal!

I don't really care about getting my money back as you have the story of buying it and the pleasure from having it restored.
Sometimes I do make a bit tho!

[Blackrider]

I know your dilema and without going off alarming one way or the other, I'd say that considering the amount of money you've already spent on the rifle...
Take it out at every opportunity, shoot it, flaunt it and thoroughly enjoy it and don't worry about its value as that is what it's truly worth to you in its use and pleasure !!

[Phil Russell]

My take on restoration may not be to everyone's taste but I feel it has served me well. It all depends on the rifle and its condition when I get it. I aim to 'restore' at a cost I think the make and model deserve, although I rarely resort to buying 'new' parts. In most cases this means the action is not reblued but if the rifle is a rusty hulk and cheap then I will often strip it back to bare metal and use a cold blue on it to give it an aesthetically good look. The innards are often treated to a new spring, usually from the spares box. If the piston had a leather washer and needs a new one, I will make one, similarly with the breech washer. I do not add a synthetic set if the originals were leather... that would be wrong. I dislike nuts and bolts added as a repair if they are clearly awful e.g self tappers holding the stock to the action or coach bolts acting as pivot bolts. In many cases, using such items will have destroyed any original screw threads so I am not averse to cheating a bit and producing aesthetically correct new bolts but with a thread that is not original ... taps and dies to the rescue. Screw and bolt heads can be reformed and the new screw heat blued to blend into the action. New pins can be made from broken drill shanks. My aim is to create a shooter that performs as close as possible to original spec. Do I increase the intrinsic value of these rifle? I do not know but I guess if I sent one to auction I would get back at least what I paid for it .... accepting the time spent on my humble restoration as just good fun.
Cheers, Phil

[Garvin]

I'm in favour of restoring collectables that are in a poor condition, and agree with pretty much all the points made so far.

But with the early Airsporters the unfortunate thing about a reblue is the absence of original etching - even if it wasn't visible to start with.

It's a shame Colin Molloy doesn't re-etch BSAs and I suspect he'd be inundated if he did!

I hear there are people out there who have perfected the re-etching process, which technology is presumably making easier all the time? David here was very close years ago (an update would be nice if you're reading this, David. )

[stevegv8]

The best way to look at it is that you are the current custodian of it and if you accept restoring may lessen the value then it is solely your choice, if you will enjoy the gun more restored over scruffy then fine.
The eventual next owner will be someone who feels the same way and the purist will pass it up, so what?
I resprayed the trigger block of a Mk1 airsporter many years ago and everyone I showed it to said I'd ruined it! I preferred it looking that way so I was happy.

As said in the above replies there are many cases where it would be wrong, dependant on the item in question so consider that when it applies is the best rule imho.
Correction on the classic car comment though, there are just as many car buffs who don't like restoration unless it's an unroadworthy rot box and has to be done.
I have a Mk 2 Cortina that is structurally and bodily very sound but needs a respray to look really good but everyone tells me to leave it alone or the history will be lost, so it'll be my decision (yet to be decided). To avoid "spoiling" it by respraying I may just pass it on

[Hsing-ee]

Some people enjoy buying off-the-shelf, freshly manufactured rifles like the QB78 and XS20 and restoring them to new condition. If it can be done on a new rifle, then why not on an old one?

I had an old Airsporter Mk 2 that had been sat in a boat in Portsmouth harbour for 30 years. The finish was so rough I had to sand it down with 400 grit. The internals were fine, protected by the kind of gum and combustion products that old motor oil leaves behind. Mechanically it was excellent, but there was no way any amount of polishing was going to get rid of the pitting. So I did what I could with the finish of the metal, made quite a nice job of refinishing the stock, did a mild tune on the mechanics, and there it was a useable and not too hideous air-rifle for plinking and ratting. Cost about £60 altogether including spares. Great fun. But there is no way it was worth a full restore, Airsporters are just not that rare. A ratty Falke 80 I had and sold on, that was definitely worth going all the way with as it is one of only 400 made. In the end it is your money, just dont expect to get it back when you sell it on. This is the same with professional tunes, nearly every week there is someone on here selling a Lazerglided HW or similar, practically unused (generally the people are PCP afficionados who got 'spring-curious') and they sell them for an eye-watering discount, often several hundreds of pounds less than they have just put into them.

[mrto]

I have restored and have had restored many shabby vintage rifles and pistols the most satisfying visually being Webley Senior and MK1 pistols where they are better than the factory ever had the time or inclination to produce.

I would sooner enjoy the appearance of a refinished gun than a pitted, rusting,wood wormy thing continuing on its path of decay when refinishing can give it another fifty odd years of additional life.

If,though a gun is of some genuinely historical significance as has been mentioned above then a different and very sympathetic approach should be employed.

How many models or makes of air gun,though, I wonder are genuinely that historically significant,very few I think!

I do wonder,as the OP described why only classic cars can be restored to concours condition with the approval of the classic car collecting community and not guns, or for that matter antique swords which I also collect?

I suspect it's because when something as big as a car is in a dilapidated condition it tends to offend the eyes on such a scale that something just has to be done about it!

[Hsing-ee]

I suspect it's because when something as big as a car is in a dilapidated condition it tends to offend the eyes on such a scale that something just has to be done about it!

It's true. A cold-blued scruffy Airsporter looks OK but a Nissan Bluebird tricked out in Hammerite may have the local community out with torches and clubs.

[thisisdonald]

Any gun should be restored to a condition that makes you want to pick it up and appreciate the design and material, then most importantly, shoot it.
If you handle an old gun and you think that shooting it may damage it or you feel like it could break just from handling... then it definitely needs restoring.
Im no purist.. i like to shoot all my guns and have them in a condition that if anything were to happen to me tomorrow, my kids would still be able to appreciate them in another 40 years time with little to no maintenance.

[RobinC]

An interesting thread, I think restorers need to take great care and be very sure what they have before they restore it to as new, if in any doubt they should research and look for expert guidance if it exists.

Bob started the thread with his BSA Airsporter Mk 1, and I also have a Mk1 in very good condition. With air guns my collection is not so much aquired as a collection, but is what we (wife and I) have bought to use over the years as serious target shooters, and we then keep them when we move onto a new one and this is easy with air guns as there is no FAC involved.

My Airsporter was bought s/h in '72 as a hunter, I'm not a specialist on BSA's and had not a clue on the value or collectability of it until recently, and the same applied with my Webley Premier, I bought that to start target shooting in '72, it was rubbish so I quickly bought a FWB 65 but kept the Webley and its now a piece of nostalgia to me. Both are close to mint and original and not at risk of being restored and are kept for nostalgia, but its only recently that I've discovered (from the helpful experts on here) that what I thought were low tech "Brits" of no significance are collectable, so the traps are there for the unwary, who could wreck a valuable rare item with well meaning ignorance.

My wife has a pre production prototype Walther LGR Junior, given to her to assess, it was given to her as she was quite blunt about the unsuitability of the LGR to a small shooter during a factory visit. The gentleman she had spoken to, was unknown to her, Carl Walther! It was the start of our 40 year conection to the Walther factory!
She used it Internationaly until she retired from top level events, but it's nearly indistinguishable from a standard one, the differences are subtle things changed for her, with out knowing the provenance, if it was sold the buyer would not know and could return it to standard as "just another" LGR Junior. Only the factory would know from the number, or perhaps not? As its now 40 years ago and most involved are now long gone, so I take care to record the provenance, not important now but in another 40 years it could be lost if not done.

I use these examples as although I think restorers should continue to return items to "as new" , even with the common and mundane they need to be very carefull to be sure of what they have and its possible place in history.

Have fun,
Robin

[zooma]

I agree that is is never worth considering the restoration of anything that is already in good to fair condition and recognise that it is never possible to achieve exactly the same finish as the manufacturer produced and so it is unlikey to be "passed-off" as being "genuine" at a later date either.

Even allowing for the same manufacturers production variations between batches (or production changes) each has their own "shades" of blue and the vast difference between the really deep black/blue of the early Webley air rifles and that of the HW rifles is an example of the contrasting variation.

Likewise, some of the blue finishes that the various metal polishers and re-finishers achieve may well be better quality than the factory produced originals but they are a different colour - and quite possibly better polished too !

Those of us that like to refinish a tired looking or damage stock with a beautiful oiled finish then take the "look" of the rifle even further away from the factory finished appearance and those that like to attempt to reproduce the factory colour shades with a copy varnish finish also find it difficult to mix the same pigments to get exactly the same shade - take a look at the typical thick toffee apple coloured Feinwerkbau varnish.

I suppose when we undertake to re-finish anything it is to make it look better than it does and in some cases to save it from being scrapped and to return it to its full function...but in effect we are really "customising" the rifle (or pistol) to make it look the way we would prefer to see it but if done well and to a high standard it is certainly NOT a cheap option and it would probably be better in most cases to just look for a better example of the rifle or pistol concerned and buy that instead!

....unless you enjoy refinishing and get some pleasure from saving "lost causes" or making things more pleasing to the eye!

[Benelli B76]

How much time and effort to put into restoration depends on a few things. Who owns the item and what do they want to do with it. How much is the item going to be worth when finished. I got 7 rifles to do this week. 3 Cadet Majors and one cadet all in terrible condition, one Diana G27 with Diana 3x scope, a BSA Supersport basket case, and a Weihrauch 99S. The guy wants to sell the Cadets and you can only get £50-60 for them so its not worth restoring them to original. I worked on two today and refinished them, one with cold blue and one with satin black paint. I used the paint as the metal finish was very bad when I started, similar to the rusty one shown at the bottom. It is just going to be used as a plinker so is fine. The Diana I will put more work into and will restore the old scope and mount to original finish as I think it will get a better price. The 99S I will also spend a lot of time on as I may buy it myself.

Baz

[thisisdonald]

And you have hit on something there.. we are never really 'restoring' as that implies returning the gun to its former condition. Ill take a wild stab that there are very few gunsmiths able to to do this.. yes, there will be some, maybe lots that can touch up or repair areas of a gun to match the original finish, but to fully 'restore to original' must be nigh on impossible. A good example, raised by Garvin is the etching... although, I think Mick T20 had a shot at it a year or so ago.. and there were others trying to replicate etching..
I wouldnt take things that far personally, I think if that area of restoration advances to the point where the amateur can easily apply etchings, we will see a shedload of people with good intentions and even gooder hard cash, being ripped off in the same way master forgers pass off paintings.. that might be taking things to extremes, but its possible.