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Thread: Improved model D

  1. #1
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    Improved model D

    I was offered an old BSA model D the other week.
    I was given a run down on it; no trigger, trigger guard or spring/s; it is all complete otherwise
    A few images were sent.
    Earlier this week it arrived and was unwrapped with some enthusiasm, my first real BSA.

    Damn these old BSA's look good, feel good and they come up to aim very nicely too.

    First appearances it seems to be in much better nick than I had expected, lovely. Going over it, a bit loose at the stock, some bruising marks on the wood but nothing that stands out except.....
    The receiver is loose at the barrel joint, also there is some swelling of the receiver...
    that obvious fact wasn't mentioned.
    I separated it today and before looking too hard at the receiver (I was hoping for some good news first) I ran some cleaning wads down the bore with a length of brazing rod.
    The rifling helix could be felt, so thats good news. I ran a few more and checked the bore; very clean.
    I pushed a few pellets down and they moved nicely until the last 3 inches where they felt looser but not excessively so.
    Onto the cylinder to check it out a bit closer.
    Sitting in front of the piston head, a lump of what looks to be lead (solder?) fell into my hands.
    Out with the internal calipers and vernier. The ID measures 38mm and just behind the thread the ID is 38.5 or thereabouts.
    Sourcing spares don't look half as bad a problem now as this revelation.
    My first thoughts are, "bugger, this looks bad....what to do?"

    I will get the camera out and post some images tomorrow.
    Last edited by slow_runner; 25-02-2016 at 10:57 AM.

  2. #2
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    Doesn't sound too good - especially the bulge in the air chamber and the presence of a lead "foreign body".
    The looseness of the barrel at the receiver is also quite alarming. I thought this joint was brazed but I may have misunderstood your description.
    Photos will certainly help.
    It seems unfortunate that your first experience of owning an old BSA IMD should have been this apparently poor example but wait and see what others think.

  3. #3
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    Hi,

    The lead you found in front of the piston head is most likely to be a deformed pellet.

    If the loading pellet chamber of the breech plug was charged with a pellet and the lever was returned to the closed position BEFORE cocking the rifle, the pellet would be sucked back through the transfer port into the chamber. On firing the now empty rifle, the piston would slam forward with the pellet becoming embedded in the soft leather piston washer. This failure to fully understand how the rifle should be operated resulted in many being returned to the factory for repair soon after they were originally dispatched. BSA printed some very comprehensive instructions to accompany later products in-order to prevent this happening together with recommendations on the pellet best suited to the rifles design.

    Hope you get things sorted soon for as you say, these are lovely old rifles which will last almost indefinitely if maintained and used in the recommended manner.

    Regards

    Brian
    Last edited by Abasmajor; 25-02-2016 at 12:45 PM.

  4. #4
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    Good advice from Abasmajor there. The barrels on these old BSAs are screw threaded to the breech and some strong thread seal should sort that problem for you.

    The BSA will take a lot of abuse and still work but the only way to tell is to use it. Once it is back together and cleaned up, possibly re sprung and washered, she may well work fine. I hope so anyway.

    John
    Currently looking for Baikal Makarov pistols with the following prefixes to the serial number: 98, T01, T09, T21, T22
    Prefer boxed or cased but will consider loose examples too.

  5. #5
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    Not ideal, but you might be alright. Would the pellet have already left the barrel by the time the piston reaches there. As John says, the truth will be in the firing ! Good luck with finding the bits. Triggers and guards usually survive well and turn up quite regularly.
    Cheers
    "helplessly they stare at his tracks......."

  6. #6
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    The barrel/receiver was originally soldered to the compression cylinder. So that may be the source of the lead you found.
    Pretty sure that the transfer port is smaller than even a.177 pellet.

    As already suggested a modern thread seal/locker will replace the solder.

  7. #7
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    It is just on sparrow fart

    It is early here and before I put my head down for an extra shut eye, there is an image in this link that shows a .22 sporting pattern with a receiver that shows a bulge with a similar appearance to my BSA.
    It can be seen tn the third and last image.
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/67044...orting+pattern

  8. #8
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    Re: cylinder loose at the breech end. I have seen this on a 'Ladies' pattern. The rifle was actually taken to a gunsmith for repair but declared uneconomical to do so. I heard about it and had a look. After cleaning it all up I treated it to some JB weld and all was well with the world and it shot like new. Interestingly the mainspring was original, complete with the BSA initials on the ends of the spring flats. Owner was well pleased.
    Cheers, Phil

  9. #9
    ccdjg is online now Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abasmajor View Post
    Hi,


    If the loading pellet chamber of the breech plug was charged with a pellet and the lever was returned to the closed position BEFORE cocking the rifle, the pellet would be sucked back through the transfer port into the chamber. On firing the now empty rifle, the piston would slam forward with the pellet becoming embedded in the soft leather piston washer. This failure to fully understand how the rifle should be operated resulted in many being returned to the factory for repair soon after they were originally dispatched. BSA printed some very comprehensive instructions to accompany later products in-order to prevent this happening together with recommendations on the pellet best suited to the rifles design.
    Curious that BSA didn't simply reduce the size of the transfer port slightly to circumvent this problem. Comprehensive instructions or not, there always seems to be an idiot minority why refuse to heed any advice (the "Do not remove" instruction on the breech plug on Webley pistols is perhaps the best known example).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by slow_runner View Post
    It is early here and before I put my head down for an extra shut eye, there is an image in this link that shows a .22 sporting pattern with a receiver that shows a bulge with a similar appearance to my BSA.
    It can be seen tn the third and last image.
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/67044...orting+pattern
    I recognise that .22 Sporting model as I once owned it. The good news is the rifle shot with good power and accuracy when I owned it and I have regretted parting with it on more than one occasion. I replaced it with an aperture sighted model of similar vintage and which had more finish but nevertheless, I have often thought I should have kept her.

    Kind regards,

    John
    Currently looking for Baikal Makarov pistols with the following prefixes to the serial number: 98, T01, T09, T21, T22
    Prefer boxed or cased but will consider loose examples too.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie & John View Post
    I recognise that .22 Sporting model as I once owned it. The good news is the rifle shot with good power and accuracy when I owned it and I have regretted parting with it on more than one occasion. I replaced it with an aperture sighted model of similar vintage and which had more finish but nevertheless, I have often thought I should have kept her.

    Kind regards,

    John
    I bought it from you, John. I also remember it as a very good shooter despite the detonation (?) bulge. I replaced the ring block for the cocking lever side catch too.

    Maybe someone was in the process of cutting out the bulge but gave up halfway through?
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
    I bought it from you, John. I also remember it as a very good shooter despite the detonation (?) bulge. I replaced the ring block for the cocking lever side catch too.

    Maybe someone was in the process of cutting out the bulge but gave up halfway through?
    I guess it just shows the bulge in this case had no detrimental effect on performance. These old pre WW1 Sporting models seem to be the best BSAs available from a performance perspective. I think it may have been Eddie that once measured cylinders from the pre WW1 rifles and compared to between the wars models, the older ones had more compression space. The science of it went over my head but Eddies results have been verified through testing of numerous models.

    Kind regards,

    John
    Currently looking for Baikal Makarov pistols with the following prefixes to the serial number: 98, T01, T09, T21, T22
    Prefer boxed or cased but will consider loose examples too.

  13. #13
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    I've just checked an early LJ .177 barrel assembly and there's no way you could suck a pellet into the compression chamber .
    This poor old LJ had a split at the other end of the cylinder

  14. #14
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    Images

    Thanks for all your replies, suggestions and words of regret
    When this one is up and running I am thinking that it will reside with me for the duration.

    About your BSA, that is an interesting coincidence John. Are you seeking another example or waiting on Garvin to offer it back? If that were to happen it would be a pleasant result.
    Maybe someone was in the process of cutting out the bulge but gave up halfway through?
    Who is to know what they were up to Garvin; I am thankful though, that a complete butcher hasn't possessed it previously and attempted to remove the affected part.

    Gordon b, that must be some explosive material to cause such detonation that causes this metal movement; impressive and the force has to go somewhere, right?
    Thinking on, the swelling is reasonably constant around the circumference and is local...... I am a believer
    Has anyone been successful in sorting out a situation such as this, and would you care to offer your advice?

    In the meanwhile, my good friend and I have been discussing options for remedy and have settled on a method we believe will be successful. He is a talented engineer and will be doing the required machining.
    If it works as we suspect it will, I will post the results etc for others who wish to follow this course.
    The worst case scenario will involve making a pattern receiver; but we don't want that unless it's absolutely necessary. Right?
    Here are images of the BSA and I think you will agree that it has great potential to be a respectable example.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psdkeptbyr.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps1td2kk3v.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psfa3dxfun.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psact1ccv1.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psr9tzkj0u.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pstzgnzcij.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psyutbhkx8.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pst1wdhoub.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psfbbbvyrn.jpg

    I think you are correct battyone, it is lead and looks to have run, then set

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psmc3fjayb.jpg
    Last edited by slow_runner; 26-02-2016 at 07:42 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by slow_runner View Post
    Thanks for all your replies, suggestions and words of regret
    When this one is up and running I am thinking that it will reside with me for the duration.

    About your BSA, that is an interesting coincidence John. Are you seeking another example or waiting on Garvin to offer it back? If that were to happen it would be a pleasant result.

    Who is to know what they were up to Garvin; I am thankful though, that a complete butcher hasn't possessed it previously and attempted to remove the affected part.

    Gordon b, that must be some explosive material to cause such detonation that causes this metal movement; impressive and the force has to go somewhere, right?
    Thinking on, the swelling is reasonably constant around the circumference and is local...... I am a believer
    Has anyone been successful in sorting out a situation such as this, and would you care to offer your advice?

    In the meanwhile, my good friend and I have been discussing options for remedy and have settled on a method we believe will be successful. He is a talented engineer and will be doing the required machining.
    If it works as we suspect it will, I will post the results etc for others who wish to follow this course.
    The worst case scenario will involve making a pattern receiver; but we don't want that unless it's absolutely necessary. Right?
    Here are images of the BSA and I think you will agree that it has great potential to be a respectable example.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psdkeptbyr.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps1td2kk3v.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psfa3dxfun.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psact1ccv1.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psr9tzkj0u.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pstzgnzcij.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psyutbhkx8.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pst1wdhoub.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psfbbbvyrn.jpg

    I think you are correct battyone, it is lead and looks to have run, then set

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psmc3fjayb.jpg
    Hi Slow_Runner,

    I have since acquired another open sighted Sporting Model, which is a nice example but more pellet fussy than the rifle I sold. Can't have everything I suppose!

    Your rifle is certainly worth saving as there is enough original finish left for the rifle to be saved. It just needs a couple of parts. The William Hazard mark on the trigger block tells us it was intended for sale through this NZ based dealer and is a nice touch of provenance.

    Please keep us posted on progress. My gut feeling is you will end up with a nice example.

    Kind regards,

    John
    Currently looking for Baikal Makarov pistols with the following prefixes to the serial number: 98, T01, T09, T21, T22
    Prefer boxed or cased but will consider loose examples too.

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