Improved model D

[Josie & John]

I bought it from you, John. I also remember it as a very good shooter despite the detonation (?) bulge. I replaced the ring block for the cocking lever side catch too.

Maybe someone was in the process of cutting out the bulge but gave up halfway through?

I guess it just shows the bulge in this case had no detrimental effect on performance. These old pre WW1 Sporting models seem to be the best BSAs available from a performance perspective. I think it may have been Eddie that once measured cylinders from the pre WW1 rifles and compared to between the wars models, the older ones had more compression space. The science of it went over my head but Eddies results have been verified through testing of numerous models.

Kind regards,

John

[battyone]

I've just checked an early LJ .177 barrel assembly and there's no way you could suck a pellet into the compression chamber .
This poor old LJ had a split at the other end of the cylinder

[slow_runner]

Thanks for all your replies, suggestions and words of regret
When this one is up and running I am thinking that it will reside with me for the duration.

About your BSA, that is an interesting coincidence John. Are you seeking another example or waiting on Garvin to offer it back? If that were to happen it would be a pleasant result.

Maybe someone was in the process of cutting out the bulge but gave up halfway through?

Who is to know what they were up to Garvin; I am thankful though, that a complete butcher hasn't possessed it previously and attempted to remove the affected part.

Gordon b, that must be some explosive material to cause such detonation that causes this metal movement; impressive and the force has to go somewhere, right?
Thinking on, the swelling is reasonably constant around the circumference and is local...... I am a believer
Has anyone been successful in sorting out a situation such as this, and would you care to offer your advice?

In the meanwhile, my good friend and I have been discussing options for remedy and have settled on a method we believe will be successful. He is a talented engineer and will be doing the required machining.
If it works as we suspect it will, I will post the results etc for others who wish to follow this course.
The worst case scenario will involve making a pattern receiver; but we don't want that unless it's absolutely necessary. Right?
Here are images of the BSA and I think you will agree that it has great potential to be a respectable example.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psdkeptbyr.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps1td2kk3v.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psfa3dxfun.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psact1ccv1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psr9tzkj0u.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pstzgnzcij.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psyutbhkx8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pst1wdhoub.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psfbbbvyrn.jpg

I think you are correct battyone, it is lead and looks to have run, then set

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psmc3fjayb.jpg

[Josie & John]

Thanks for all your replies, suggestions and words of regret
When this one is up and running I am thinking that it will reside with me for the duration.

About your BSA, that is an interesting coincidence John. Are you seeking another example or waiting on Garvin to offer it back? If that were to happen it would be a pleasant result.

Who is to know what they were up to Garvin; I am thankful though, that a complete butcher hasn't possessed it previously and attempted to remove the affected part.

Gordon b, that must be some explosive material to cause such detonation that causes this metal movement; impressive and the force has to go somewhere, right?
Thinking on, the swelling is reasonably constant around the circumference and is local...... I am a believer
Has anyone been successful in sorting out a situation such as this, and would you care to offer your advice?

In the meanwhile, my good friend and I have been discussing options for remedy and have settled on a method we believe will be successful. He is a talented engineer and will be doing the required machining.
If it works as we suspect it will, I will post the results etc for others who wish to follow this course.
The worst case scenario will involve making a pattern receiver; but we don't want that unless it's absolutely necessary. Right?
Here are images of the BSA and I think you will agree that it has great potential to be a respectable example.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psdkeptbyr.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps1td2kk3v.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psfa3dxfun.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psact1ccv1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psr9tzkj0u.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pstzgnzcij.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psyutbhkx8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pst1wdhoub.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psfbbbvyrn.jpg

I think you are correct battyone, it is lead and looks to have run, then set

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psmc3fjayb.jpg

Hi Slow_Runner,

I have since acquired another open sighted Sporting Model, which is a nice example but more pellet fussy than the rifle I sold. Can't have everything I suppose!

Your rifle is certainly worth saving as there is enough original finish left for the rifle to be saved. It just needs a couple of parts. The William Hazard mark on the trigger block tells us it was intended for sale through this NZ based dealer and is a nice touch of provenance.

Please keep us posted on progress. My gut feeling is you will end up with a nice example.

Kind regards,

John

[slow_runner]

Hi John.
To find another nice sporting model, that is good news indeed; one of the benefits of living in the land of plenty
Thanks for your vote of confidence too, it certainly is not misplaced.

In the meantime I am be looking for needed parts and am hopeful that there may be luck in that regard at the Kumeu Show next month. If it proves too difficult and drawn out, I see that John Knibbs has replica parts available.
The immediate goal is to remedy this cylinder to which I will be sure to keep you posted.

[Josie & John]

Keep an eye on E-bay too as spares often crop up.

Kind regards,

John

[AC99]

The presence of soft (tin/lead) solder in the air chamber tends to suggest that at some time in its life this rifle suffered from some disastrous attempt to reseal the joint between barrel and receiver.
It seems that someone has removed the barrel/receiver from the air chamber but this can only have been done by melting the original high melting point braze material and unscrewing the barrel. This may account for the grip marks on the chamber wall. On re-assembly and attempting to re-seal the joint soft solder (low melting point) has been used and has simply run through into the air chamber; a tin/lead solder would not have alloyed with the steel unlike the original filler braze material used by BSA. All this is pure speculation of course!
However,the photos show a nice looking rifle with potential so good luck with your repair/renovation.
Aubrey

[edbear2]

I guess it just shows the bulge in this case had no detrimental effect on performance. These old pre WW1 Sporting models seem to be the best BSAs available from a performance perspective. I think it may have been Eddie that once measured cylinders from the pre WW1 rifles and compared to between the wars models, the older ones had more compression space. The science of it went over my head but Eddies results have been verified through testing of numerous models.

Kind regards,

John

Hi John, the Sporting (and early pre 1918 Standard) has a lighter piston and shorter latch rod giving more swept area over the 1919-39 Standards;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7607860743867/

Bottom is 1919-39 Standard, which is essentially an extended Sporting unit, and can be cut down to fit a pre 1918 gun, piston above is Sorting 45" .22 (1911).

I am not 100% sure when the change over happened, I have had a couple of early 1919 standards, and both had the longer pistons, but as we know that means nothing and some earlier ones may have found their way into guns?

ATB, Ed

ATB, Ed

[Josie & John]

Hi John, the Sporting (and early pre 1918 Standard) has a lighter piston and shorter latch rod giving more swept area over the 1919-39 Standards;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7607860743867/

Bottom is 1919-39 Standard, which is essentially an extended Sporting unit, and can be cut down to fit a pre 1918 gun, piston above is Sorting 45" .22 (1911).

I am not 100% sure when the change over happened, I have had a couple of early 1919 standards, and both had the longer pistons, but as we know that means nothing and some earlier ones may have found their way into guns?

ATB, Ed

ATB, Ed

Thanks for clearing that up Eddie. I think BSA made more of an effort with making the post 1919 No 2 Standard as a 'new' model than the earliest No 1s, as pre war parts were used on the latter, whereas as I do not know of any No 2s with for example a pre WW1 cylinder or loading lever.

Kind regards,

John

[slow_runner]

Hi Aubrey, I agree, even sitting on the kitchen table in its component pieces it looks good
Speculation is all we can do Aubrey; it is a bit of fun and gets the mind working on the possibilities.
The rough and ready types who use whatever tools are at hand can be bad enough but when coupled with ignorance, that is a recipe for a worse outcome. I am thankful that this one seems to have been attended to by the former and it's in quite good nick .
My mate will be having a good look at it tomorrow, measurements etc.
As mentioned, I have done so with inside calipers and aside from the swell, the bore dimension feels very consistent. There are some marks that I do not believe to be serious and those will be inspected closer then.

Hi Battyone, I am picking it was a problem project for someone and the trigger parts have been lost. If it was a case of robbing it for parts, as I first thought, then there wouldn't be much left, as what is there would be worth selling off by the mercenary types.

That is interesting to know Ed. Thanks for the links to your files, I appreciate that. It is very obvious that I have a lot to learn but I'm keen
Have you come upon threaded joints where the method of producing a gas tight seal is attained by a hemp ring located in an undercut at the thread end?

Thanks for all the help and direction that is offered and I will be sure to return that as we go on this project.
I will post again tomorrow evening on what we find.

ATB

[edbear2]

Hi Aubrey..These old guns can take a lifetime of neglect and still shoot well....The secret being if the barrel has not been abused by foreign objects, here is the story of one old girl I found a while back;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/67054...quot%3B+models

As for the hemp, I personally don't think it will be up to the pressures involved at the point the pellet decides to start moving, I have used loctite 270 with an activator spray on the cylinders I have removed with no problems or leaks yet (2-5 years on). I have sure BSA would have used the stuff if it had been around back then....It's good enough for Air Arms to hold in their piston latch rods and barrels into their actions.

ATB, ED

[slow_runner]

Hi Ed. I asked further about the method of using hemp as a seal material and he told me that he has come upon these examples on a few of the many old air rifles that he has resurrected and serviced. The hemp is located at the barrel/cylinder joint. Maybe it was factory or not? His reasoning on the use of this method is the close contact thread, mechanical contact, distance and with the final hemp seal did not allow any pressure loss. Pressure doesn't travel well on a tortuous path and the thread form acts as a labyrinth seal.
I agree, certainly BSA would have used a good threadlock if it was available in the day and we will definitely be using it on this repair reassembly.

Yesterday we spent time looking over his latest air rifle, a small GEM. It has a hex/round barrel, Original GEM lightly stamped on the hex part of the barrel. It has responded well to his work.
It came covered in corrosion and minus the piston and spring. A dummy piston was made and when the finished dimensions were determined, a new piston was machined from a length of linear bearing shaft. It is now punching pellets at a very respectable rate (I cannot remember the fps figures).

Not much happened with the BSA except for it being closely checked.
The BSA barrel and receiver passed muster, well the whole thing did really and that is good news. I brought my Rigid pipe cutter along to be modified for the cylinder repair.

[slow_runner]

Not much happened with the BSA except for it being closely checked.
The BSA barrel and receiver passed muster, well the whole thing did really and that is good news. I brought my Rigid pipe cutter along to be modified for the cylinder repair.

Well today we made good progress.

There was a difference of 0.52mm of deformed cylinder to be rearranged.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps1emjdu6t.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psqp9fjida.jpg

Jeff had modified the pipe cutter previously and when I arrived at his shed he machined up the threaded mandrel that would provide support for the receiver. With the aid of a section of old receiver with a clean, tight thread form and a few trial fits we were ready to begin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps4hayiomj.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psiyrvodxq.jpg

The mandrel was screwed in nice and tight. To test the waters, a light turn or three with the lubricated pipe cutter/swage tool and the results were looking good. So with a few stops to check fits we carried on until no more progress could be made.
The mandrel was removed and the receiver thread fit tested on the barrel.
It was good... but a thou or two more would make the difference. So a cautious pass was made without the mandrel, rotating and working the swage down the cylinder. Then the fit tried again.
Perfect.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psa9gn8kk5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psxodwwper.jpg

A few lumps on the I.D were removed with a reamer and then the surface polished.
Another trial fit to determine if a shim spacer or thread removal was required to gain correct alignment of the cocking slot.
No such need, the material had grown the required amount and with enough force everything lined up spot on
The threads were cleaned, threadlock 271 applied and the barrel/receiver were tightened together.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pskiwub3sk.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps6lkcr0rf.jpg


We were keen to discover the results before the next stage in recovering the old BSA.
Using the tired piston and refreshed old seal we assembled the BSA with a trigger borrowed from Jeffs' BSA.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psc8ckrg20.jpg

I see what all the fuss is about.
Although we only got 307-310fps that wasn't so important and not unexpected.
The real pleasure was having it up and working again. The groups were tight and it functions so well....
It groups so well too. I am real happy.

The next stage is to do remedial work on the receiver surface and bring it back to near its aged appearance. We don't want to reblue and frankly it doesn't need it.
The new piston seal will be a Jeff made synthetic.
What I have to do is seriously look for the missing trigger components. If I am real fortunate, maybe a fore sight guard .