Improved model D

[slow_runner]

Hi John.
To find another nice sporting model, that is good news indeed; one of the benefits of living in the land of plenty
Thanks for your vote of confidence too, it certainly is not misplaced.

In the meantime I am be looking for needed parts and am hopeful that there may be luck in that regard at the Kumeu Show next month. If it proves too difficult and drawn out, I see that John Knibbs has replica parts available.
The immediate goal is to remedy this cylinder to which I will be sure to keep you posted.

[Josie & John]

Keep an eye on E-bay too as spares often crop up.

Kind regards,

John

[AC99]

The presence of soft (tin/lead) solder in the air chamber tends to suggest that at some time in its life this rifle suffered from some disastrous attempt to reseal the joint between barrel and receiver.
It seems that someone has removed the barrel/receiver from the air chamber but this can only have been done by melting the original high melting point braze material and unscrewing the barrel. This may account for the grip marks on the chamber wall. On re-assembly and attempting to re-seal the joint soft solder (low melting point) has been used and has simply run through into the air chamber; a tin/lead solder would not have alloyed with the steel unlike the original filler braze material used by BSA. All this is pure speculation of course!
However,the photos show a nice looking rifle with potential so good luck with your repair/renovation.
Aubrey

[battyone]

I've only separated one, but it was definitely a lead type solder. Being as the joint is threaded, the solder is only acting as a thread lock and sealer.
Not like a push fit breech and cylinder, which definitely would need brazing.

Do the sporting models just have a longer cylinder? Or is it a larger diameter too? It almost looks tapered at the breech thread area, rather than just bulged. Is the cylinder wall thicker than the .177 s ?

Certainly looks like someone intended to fix this one, maybe when they couldn't get the cylinder to turn, they tried heat not realizing that the joint was soldered???
Shame that the trigger parts have been lost, but at least it has a full complement of sights.

[edbear2]

The presence of soft (tin/lead) solder in the air chamber tends to suggest that at some time in its life this rifle suffered from some disastrous attempt to reseal the joint between barrel and receiver.
It seems that someone has removed the barrel/receiver from the air chamber but this can only have been done by melting the original high melting point braze material and unscrewing the barrel. This may account for the grip marks on the chamber wall. On re-assembly and attempting to re-seal the joint soft solder (low melting point) has been used and has simply run through into the air chamber; a tin/lead solder would not have alloyed with the steel unlike the original filler braze material used by BSA. All this is pure speculation of course!
However,the photos show a nice looking rifle with potential so good luck with your repair/renovation.
Aubrey

Hi Aubrey, they were all soldered, I have done ones that have never been apart;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...57624319794343

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...57616789686347

For various reasons, either to replace a damaged cylinder, or to build specials. If indeed there was solder inside it may be as you say that a repair or heating has been carried out.

No problem to solder steel using an aggressive acid type cleaner / flux and lead solder, years ago I was building car fuel tanks from lead coated steel (old stock) so I know it sticks ...And Webley Mk3 front sights are often held in place with solder...I have seen people trying to use rosin type electrical stuff which obviously will not "take", you must use an acid flux!

You only need a canvas strap wrench and the breech in a vice, heat gently and it will come apart easily.

The sporting had the same cylinder / wall thickness (ie. same CDS tube used), the only difference is the length of the cylinder / piston / cocking levers.

ATB, Ed

[edbear2]

I guess it just shows the bulge in this case had no detrimental effect on performance. These old pre WW1 Sporting models seem to be the best BSAs available from a performance perspective. I think it may have been Eddie that once measured cylinders from the pre WW1 rifles and compared to between the wars models, the older ones had more compression space. The science of it went over my head but Eddies results have been verified through testing of numerous models.

Kind regards,

John

Hi John, the Sporting (and early pre 1918 Standard) has a lighter piston and shorter latch rod giving more swept area over the 1919-39 Standards;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7607860743867/

Bottom is 1919-39 Standard, which is essentially an extended Sporting unit, and can be cut down to fit a pre 1918 gun, piston above is Sorting 45" .22 (1911).

I am not 100% sure when the change over happened, I have had a couple of early 1919 standards, and both had the longer pistons, but as we know that means nothing and some earlier ones may have found their way into guns?

ATB, Ed

ATB, Ed

[Josie & John]

Hi John, the Sporting (and early pre 1918 Standard) has a lighter piston and shorter latch rod giving more swept area over the 1919-39 Standards;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7607860743867/

Bottom is 1919-39 Standard, which is essentially an extended Sporting unit, and can be cut down to fit a pre 1918 gun, piston above is Sorting 45" .22 (1911).

I am not 100% sure when the change over happened, I have had a couple of early 1919 standards, and both had the longer pistons, but as we know that means nothing and some earlier ones may have found their way into guns?

ATB, Ed

ATB, Ed

Thanks for clearing that up Eddie. I think BSA made more of an effort with making the post 1919 No 2 Standard as a 'new' model than the earliest No 1s, as pre war parts were used on the latter, whereas as I do not know of any No 2s with for example a pre WW1 cylinder or loading lever.

Kind regards,

John

[slow_runner]

Hi Aubrey, I agree, even sitting on the kitchen table in its component pieces it looks good
Speculation is all we can do Aubrey; it is a bit of fun and gets the mind working on the possibilities.
The rough and ready types who use whatever tools are at hand can be bad enough but when coupled with ignorance, that is a recipe for a worse outcome. I am thankful that this one seems to have been attended to by the former and it's in quite good nick .
My mate will be having a good look at it tomorrow, measurements etc.
As mentioned, I have done so with inside calipers and aside from the swell, the bore dimension feels very consistent. There are some marks that I do not believe to be serious and those will be inspected closer then.

Hi Battyone, I am picking it was a problem project for someone and the trigger parts have been lost. If it was a case of robbing it for parts, as I first thought, then there wouldn't be much left, as what is there would be worth selling off by the mercenary types.

That is interesting to know Ed. Thanks for the links to your files, I appreciate that. It is very obvious that I have a lot to learn but I'm keen
Have you come upon threaded joints where the method of producing a gas tight seal is attained by a hemp ring located in an undercut at the thread end?

Thanks for all the help and direction that is offered and I will be sure to return that as we go on this project.
I will post again tomorrow evening on what we find.

ATB

[edbear2]

Hi Aubrey..These old guns can take a lifetime of neglect and still shoot well....The secret being if the barrel has not been abused by foreign objects, here is the story of one old girl I found a while back;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/67054...quot%3B+models

As for the hemp, I personally don't think it will be up to the pressures involved at the point the pellet decides to start moving, I have used loctite 270 with an activator spray on the cylinders I have removed with no problems or leaks yet (2-5 years on). I have sure BSA would have used the stuff if it had been around back then....It's good enough for Air Arms to hold in their piston latch rods and barrels into their actions.

ATB, ED

[slow_runner]

Hi Ed. I asked further about the method of using hemp as a seal material and he told me that he has come upon these examples on a few of the many old air rifles that he has resurrected and serviced. The hemp is located at the barrel/cylinder joint. Maybe it was factory or not? His reasoning on the use of this method is the close contact thread, mechanical contact, distance and with the final hemp seal did not allow any pressure loss. Pressure doesn't travel well on a tortuous path and the thread form acts as a labyrinth seal.
I agree, certainly BSA would have used a good threadlock if it was available in the day and we will definitely be using it on this repair reassembly.

Yesterday we spent time looking over his latest air rifle, a small GEM. It has a hex/round barrel, Original GEM lightly stamped on the hex part of the barrel. It has responded well to his work.
It came covered in corrosion and minus the piston and spring. A dummy piston was made and when the finished dimensions were determined, a new piston was machined from a length of linear bearing shaft. It is now punching pellets at a very respectable rate (I cannot remember the fps figures).

Not much happened with the BSA except for it being closely checked.
The BSA barrel and receiver passed muster, well the whole thing did really and that is good news. I brought my Rigid pipe cutter along to be modified for the cylinder repair.

[slow_runner]

Not much happened with the BSA except for it being closely checked.
The BSA barrel and receiver passed muster, well the whole thing did really and that is good news. I brought my Rigid pipe cutter along to be modified for the cylinder repair.

Well today we made good progress.

There was a difference of 0.52mm of deformed cylinder to be rearranged.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps1emjdu6t.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psqp9fjida.jpg

Jeff had modified the pipe cutter previously and when I arrived at his shed he machined up the threaded mandrel that would provide support for the receiver. With the aid of a section of old receiver with a clean, tight thread form and a few trial fits we were ready to begin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps4hayiomj.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psiyrvodxq.jpg

The mandrel was screwed in nice and tight. To test the waters, a light turn or three with the lubricated pipe cutter/swage tool and the results were looking good. So with a few stops to check fits we carried on until no more progress could be made.
The mandrel was removed and the receiver thread fit tested on the barrel.
It was good... but a thou or two more would make the difference. So a cautious pass was made without the mandrel, rotating and working the swage down the cylinder. Then the fit tried again.
Perfect.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psa9gn8kk5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psxodwwper.jpg

A few lumps on the I.D were removed with a reamer and then the surface polished.
Another trial fit to determine if a shim spacer or thread removal was required to gain correct alignment of the cocking slot.
No such need, the material had grown the required amount and with enough force everything lined up spot on
The threads were cleaned, threadlock 271 applied and the barrel/receiver were tightened together.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pskiwub3sk.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps6lkcr0rf.jpg


We were keen to discover the results before the next stage in recovering the old BSA.
Using the tired piston and refreshed old seal we assembled the BSA with a trigger borrowed from Jeffs' BSA.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psc8ckrg20.jpg

I see what all the fuss is about.
Although we only got 307-310fps that wasn't so important and not unexpected.
The real pleasure was having it up and working again. The groups were tight and it functions so well....
It groups so well too. I am real happy.

The next stage is to do remedial work on the receiver surface and bring it back to near its aged appearance. We don't want to reblue and frankly it doesn't need it.
The new piston seal will be a Jeff made synthetic.
What I have to do is seriously look for the missing trigger components. If I am real fortunate, maybe a fore sight guard .

[micky2]

What a cracking job you have done, credit to you both to get the old girl up and runing again, the rest should be easy to do, with the piston head washer but l would use leather as they were made in the first place, just my take on it.

[AC99]

What a brilliant piece of remedial engineering on this old BSA and it now seems to be shooting fine, so well done. You should be pleased with yourselves!
I would also agree with above comment that a leather piston washer should be used for authenticity if possible.
Aubrey

[slow_runner]

What a cracking job you have done, credit to you both to get the old girl up and runing again, the rest should be easy to do, with the piston head washer but l would use leather as they were made in the first place, just my take on it.

What a brilliant piece of remedial engineering on this old BSA and it now seems to be shooting fine, so well done. You should be pleased with yourselves! I would also agree with above comment that a leather piston washer should be used for authenticity if possible. Aubrey

Micky and Aubrey, thanks for your kind words. The kudos really belongs to Jeff, I'm just his T.A .
On my stuff and others, we throw a few ideas about but more often than not, his lifetime of experience wins out.
He has rebuilt, rescued many rifles and pistols and all manner of machinery and bikes.

I have seen quite some number of apparent scrap worthy items that Jeff has recovered.
With air rifles, if they are capable of shooting well at the end of the exercise, he will work on them.
The results he produces are impressive both in performance and to the eye.

The synthetic seals are custom fitted and the results are more often than not, above that of leather. I am sure that they will outlast me and possibly my children(?).
As with using modern sealants, lubricants and the like, I am sure that BSA would have used these seals if the technology was present then and their customer base could readily access them.
I know what you mean about authenticity though but in this case reliability, ease of maintenance and performance win out.
A leather seal can be made at any point and if the compression chamber was in poor condition then I would definitely use one.

Some good news has come my way.
Mike has generously offered a trigger guard toward the project .
Now, if there is just a genuine trigger to be found and maybe some fastenings; but the fastenings are less important as they can be made if needs must.

Cheers.

If anyone can assist with a genuine trigger, I would be pleased to hear from them.

[slow_runner]

Just a quick message. The trigger guard and adjuster sent by Mike arrived a couple of days back, it's a very tidy unit
So a big thanks to Mike and also to Keith, who is sending a trigger to make this gun complete.
The generosity and willingness of these two folk to assist is appreciated greatly and confirms that belief in the goodness of people.
I am occupied with some urgent matters for the while, but will have further news and some images as time allows.

Some good news, with Jeff synthetic seal and a one piece spring from the bottom drawer, is it is shooting consistanly in the low 600fps with a variation of 3fps or so, using locally manufactured ( affordable ) NZ pellets